Yu-Gi-Oh! » Forbidden/Limited List Discussions

5. Baronne de Fleur
4. Fusion Destiny
3. Eva
2. Mystic Mine
1. Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon

Drytron hasn't been doing much so I don't see Eva getting touched, but it's likely those other cards will be hit.

Do we really need to have the same arguments on why Mystic Mine, Dragoon is perfectly fine?

[quote="Renji Asuka":1ldgdnnw]Do we really need to have the same arguments on why Mystic Mine, Dragoon is perfectly fine?[/quote:1ldgdnnw]
It's almost like verte is the problem but that somehow isn't allowed be the case.

On a side note if konami insists on continuing to make fusion spells that allow you to send materials from deck to GY then they really start making them splashproof even if they ban verte.

If Verte is still allowed unbanned, then Celestial is the hit for the DPE engine

[quote="Debt":24uu289x][quote="Renji Asuka":24uu289x]Do we really need to have the same arguments on why Mystic Mine, Dragoon is perfectly fine?[/quote:24uu289x]
It's almost like verte is the problem but that somehow isn't allowed be the case.

On a side note if konami insists on continuing to make fusion spells that allow you to send materials from deck to GY then they really start making them splashproof even if they ban verte.[/quote:24uu289x]

This all started because Konami printed these crazy strong fusion monsters Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon and Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer. Red-Eyes Fusion was fine since the best thing it could summon was Archfiend Black Skull Dragon which wasn't too powerful anyways. Fusion Destiny was also fine since it also couldn't summon anything too crazy. Now both of these spells can summon crazy things and Konami is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to what needs to be hit.

If Konami hits the fusion monsters or the fusion spells, it unfairly hurts Red-Eyes and Destiny HERO decks.
If Konami hits Verte, it unfairly hurts both Predaplant decks as well as decks that use Verte for monsters other than those 2 fusions I just mentioned, plus the problem still exists of players abusing the fusion spells to bring out the strong fusion monsters even without Verte.

What I think should happen are the following:

Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer should get either an errata so that it's effect to destroy is no longer a quick effect but rather a spell speed 1 ignition effect, an errata where it can't activate both it's quick effect and it's special summoning effect the same turn, or an errata where it can't activate it's quick effect the same turn it special summoned itself from the graveyard.

Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon should have at least 1 of it's effects either nerfed or removed. Maybe it could lose the targeting immunity while still keeping the destruction immunity and the other effects, or lose the destruction immunity while still keeping the targeting immunity and the other effects. Maybe it could be made so it just no longer inflicts burn damage after destroying cards. Maybe it could be made so it requires 2 discards to negate instead of 1, or made so it no longer increases it's own atk after it discards 1 card to negate something, so you can still summon something with 3100 or more atk to run over it in battle after baiting out it's negation.

Verte should require at least 1 of it's link materials to be dark, or require at least 1 of it's link materials to be a "Predaplant" or "Fusion Dragon" monster.

With these changes, the fusion spells can remain untouched without being so much of an issue anymore.

[quote="Christen57":1zwbhxsu]
This all started because Konami printed these crazy strong fusion monsters Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon and Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer. Red-Eyes Fusion was fine since the best thing it could summon was Archfiend Black Skull Dragon which wasn't too powerful anyways. Fusion Destiny was also fine since it also couldn't summon anything too crazy. Now both of these spells can summon crazy things and Konami is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to what needs to be hit.
[/quote:1zwbhxsu]
Is DPE or dragoon a problem if they were only constrained to their archetype? Is verte staying in the game worth having to preemptively nerf every future fusion spell?

[quote="Christen57":21wnqh26]If Konami hits Verte, it unfairly hurts both Predaplant decks as well as decks that use Verte for monsters other than those 2 fusions I just mentioned, plus the problem still exists of players abusing the fusion spells to bring out the strong fusion monsters even without Verte.[/quote:21wnqh26]
Bro Predaplants are fine, they're already good enough and getting any fusion spell with cobra. Also, without Verte, you either have to commit more main deck to getting the fusion spell, or hoping you just draw it, and don't draw the materials because you want to fuse them from deck. Also, if you're not sending a "fuse from deck" spell or Super Poly with Verte, then you aren't playing it as intended.

serves mystic mine right

[quote="Debt":vqly39q1][quote="Christen57":vqly39q1]
This all started because Konami printed these crazy strong fusion monsters Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon and Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer. Red-Eyes Fusion was fine since the best thing it could summon was Archfiend Black Skull Dragon which wasn't too powerful anyways. Fusion Destiny was also fine since it also couldn't summon anything too crazy. Now both of these spells can summon crazy things and Konami is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to what needs to be hit.
[/quote:vqly39q1]
Is DPE or dragoon a problem if they were only constrained to their archetype? Is verte staying in the game worth having to preemptively nerf every future fusion spell?[/quote:vqly39q1]

I can't say for certain. Maybe constraining them to their archetype would balance them, maybe it wouldn't. Sometimes constraining a card to it's archetype balances it, and other times it proves to not be enough to balance it. Master Peace, the True Dracoslaying King for example was played mostly in it's own archetype but still proved to be too strong.

[quote="greg503":vqly39q1][quote="Christen57":vqly39q1]If Konami hits Verte, it unfairly hurts both Predaplant decks as well as decks that use Verte for monsters other than those 2 fusions I just mentioned, plus the problem still exists of players abusing the fusion spells to bring out the strong fusion monsters even without Verte.[/quote:vqly39q1]
Bro Predaplants are fine, they're already good enough and getting any fusion spell with cobra. Also, without Verte, you either have to commit more main deck to getting the fusion spell, or hoping you just draw it, and don't draw the materials because you want to fuse them from deck. Also, if you're not sending a "fuse from deck" spell or Super Poly with Verte, then you aren't playing it as intended.[/quote:vqly39q1]

"As intended" is subjective. Many cards were designed by Konami "intending" for the card to be used one way but players find some other completely unexpected way to abuse it.

[quote="Christen57":27wtqeps][quote="greg503":27wtqeps][quote="Christen57":27wtqeps]If Konami hits Verte, it unfairly hurts both Predaplant decks as well as decks that use Verte for monsters other than those 2 fusions I just mentioned, plus the problem still exists of players abusing the fusion spells to bring out the strong fusion monsters even without Verte.[/quote:27wtqeps]
Bro Predaplants are fine, they're already good enough and getting any fusion spell with cobra. Also, without Verte, you either have to commit more main deck to getting the fusion spell, or hoping you just draw it, and don't draw the materials because you want to fuse them from deck. Also, if you're not sending a "fuse from deck" spell or Super Poly with Verte, then you aren't playing it as intended.[/quote:27wtqeps]

"As intended" is subjective. Many cards were designed by Konami "intending" for the card to be used one way but players find some other completely unexpected way to abuse it.[/quote:27wtqeps]
Well doesn't that sound like the perfect job for the banlist. Or errata. Konami knows how Anaconda is being used competitively, and that many people want it out of the game.

[quote="Christen57":23x4l7p4][quote="Debt":23x4l7p4][quote="Christen57":23x4l7p4]
This all started because Konami printed these crazy strong fusion monsters Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon and Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer. Red-Eyes Fusion was fine since the best thing it could summon was Archfiend Black Skull Dragon which wasn't too powerful anyways. Fusion Destiny was also fine since it also couldn't summon anything too crazy. Now both of these spells can summon crazy things and Konami is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to what needs to be hit.
[/quote:23x4l7p4]
Is DPE or dragoon a problem if they were only constrained to their archetype? Is verte staying in the game worth having to preemptively nerf every future fusion spell?[/quote:23x4l7p4]

I can't say for certain. Maybe constraining them to their archetype would balance them, maybe it wouldn't. Sometimes constraining a card to it's archetype balances it, and other times it proves to not be enough to balance it. Master Peace, the True Dracoslaying King for example was played mostly in it's own archetype but still proved to be too strong.
[/quote:23x4l7p4]
I mean, True Draco is already strong so a good boss monster becomes way stronger. Dragoon and DPE don't enjoy of a strong archetype to support their power, other than Red Eyes Fusion/Eye of Timaeus and Fusion Destiny.

UPDATE: Eva Got Banned but not Fusion Destiny (which is Semi-Limited)

[quote="james123":2fysu8yc]UPDATE: Eva Got Banned but not Fusion Destiny (which is Semi-Limited)[/quote:2fysu8yc]
It's like Konami TCG has a reason to keep Verte engines around

Ah, yes. this post aged like Milk on a hot summer's day.