The "lack of judge issue" issue.

[Renji Asuka]

Irrelevant kinda like you arguing, the answer won't change, the problem is not judges db needs better players.

Glad you're okay with judges being lazy and not doing their job.

They are doing their job they just aren't doing it on your schedule, they're judges, not babysitters. Want a better environment to play in? Make one.

I never said they had to do it on my schedule. You're still creating laziness by providing excuses instead of expecting better from the judges.

But hey, if you rather have mediocrity that's your choice.

[MarshieDemon]

You simply don't understand how the players feel. Waiting on a judge for hours without one on. I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself. This is a serious issue on DB that has not been fixed for years. That is simply pathetic and the fact that you are trying to defend that is just sad. There is clearly a flaw within your system and you ignore it.

You can't build a house without builders. You can't run a hospital without doctors. You can't have a criminal justice system without lawyers.

If it was up to me, I'd have a judge online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I do not have the judges to do that. I cannot force the judges I do have to work overtime for me for free. I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself. But I cannot magically snap my fingers to get a judge online the second you need one.

The only solution I have is to hire more judges. I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself.

I am going to be honest Marshie. You have so poorly read my post which resulted in a objectively false statement. Let me break it down.

"I cannot force the judges I do have to work overtime for me for free."
Even though you are one of the more active judges I don't see what "overtime" you are talking about. Dealing with a long judge call isn't working "overtime" it is something to be expected doing a judge call and any judge should leave themselves with plenty of free time in case of a long judge call. Like this duel:https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=51030049

"I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself"
Marshie Marshie Marshie. Did you read my post? Seriously? I clearly said that the reason you judges would not be able to understand the players feelings is because of your positions on DB. If you were playing a duel on DB you would be able to solve most rulings that may come up because you are a judge. Neither player would not have to be forced to call a judge. So no you will never understand. You being a player as well is irrelevant.

You later on talk about me passing the exam myself to fill the DB "population". Again you clearly didn't read what I said. One person will not change an issue that has been present that years. So what difference would a single person make?

There clearly needs to be a talk with the DB community about how to fix the issue of inactivity of judges. In fact it feels like the issue has gotten worse with there being more judges. Why keep repeating the same thing when it has not worked for years?

This is the most condescending thing I've ever had someone say to me. Doesn't exactly make me want to continue discussing this with you.

[Sound4]

You can't build a house without builders. You can't run a hospital without doctors. You can't have a criminal justice system without lawyers.

If it was up to me, I'd have a judge online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I do not have the judges to do that. I cannot force the judges I do have to work overtime for me for free. I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself. But I cannot magically snap my fingers to get a judge online the second you need one.

The only solution I have is to hire more judges. I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself.

I am going to be honest Marshie. You have so poorly read my post which resulted in a objectively false statement. Let me break it down.

"I cannot force the judges I do have to work overtime for me for free."
Even though you are one of the more active judges I don't see what "overtime" you are talking about. Dealing with a long judge call isn't working "overtime" it is something to be expected doing a judge call and any judge should leave themselves with plenty of free time in case of a long judge call. Like this duel:https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=51030049

"I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself"
Marshie Marshie Marshie. Did you read my post? Seriously? I clearly said that the reason you judges would not be able to understand the players feelings is because of your positions on DB. If you were playing a duel on DB you would be able to solve most rulings that may come up because you are a judge. Neither player would not have to be forced to call a judge. So no you will never understand. You being a player as well is irrelevant.

You later on talk about me passing the exam myself to fill the DB "population". Again you clearly didn't read what I said. One person will not change an issue that has been present that years. So what difference would a single person make?

There clearly needs to be a talk with the DB community about how to fix the issue of inactivity of judges. In fact it feels like the issue has gotten worse with there being more judges. Why keep repeating the same thing when it has not worked for years?

This is the most condescending thing I've ever had someone say to me. Doesn't exactly make me want to continue discussing this with you.

It's simply a breakdown of your objectively false statement. Nothing to do with emotions. You clearly poorly read my post as I proved. Also some constructive criticism of your post.

[MarshieDemon]

"Marshie Marshie Marshie" isn't condescending?

You have lost my interest.

[greg503]

I am going to be honest Marshie. You have so poorly read my post which resulted in a objectively false statement. Let me break it down.

"I cannot force the judges I do have to work overtime for me for free."
Even though you are one of the more active judges I don't see what "overtime" you are talking about. Dealing with a long judge call isn't working "overtime" it is something to be expected doing a judge call and any judge should leave themselves with plenty of free time in case of a long judge call. Like this duel:https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=51030049

"I do understand how the players feel because I am one myself"
Marshie Marshie Marshie. Did you read my post? Seriously? I clearly said that the reason you judges would not be able to understand the players feelings is because of your positions on DB. If you were playing a duel on DB you would be able to solve most rulings that may come up because you are a judge. Neither player would not have to be forced to call a judge. So no you will never understand. You being a player as well is irrelevant.

You later on talk about me passing the exam myself to fill the DB "population". Again you clearly didn't read what I said. One person will not change an issue that has been present that years. So what difference would a single person make?

There clearly needs to be a talk with the DB community about how to fix the issue of inactivity of judges. In fact it feels like the issue has gotten worse with there being more judges. Why keep repeating the same thing when it has not worked for years?

This is the most condescending thing I've ever had someone say to me. Doesn't exactly make me want to continue discussing this with you.

It's simply a breakdown of your objectively false statement. Nothing to do with emotions. You clearly poorly read my post as I proved. Also some constructive criticism of your post.

I'm going to be honest. You have so poorly and condescendingly responded to Marshie's post that resulted in objectively false statements.

On overtime: This is about the more conventional overtime, ergo not about sometimes long judge calls. Marshie is saying they can't make judges stay on longer than they choose to such that judges can always be present.

On "player feelings": If you were a knowledgeable enough player, you would also know that rulings that may come up, even if you aren't a judge. Moreover, you don't know if Marshie does play actual games on DB, maybe in unrated or on an alt. They could be getting the "normal player experience" too.

Finally, even though one new judge wouldn't fix "the issue," there can be a number that does. What if 100 people got skilled enough to be judge candidates, and covered all the common timezones on DB?
Also, did setting it up like this still ping Marshie?

[ominous]

Glad you're okay with judges being lazy and not doing their job.

They are doing their job they just aren't doing it on your schedule, they're judges, not babysitters. Want a better environment to play in? Make one.

I never said they had to do it on my schedule. You're still creating laziness by providing excuses instead of expecting better from the judges.

But hey, if you rather have mediocrity that's your choice.

If I wanted to pander to mediocrity I'd continue this conversation in earnest but you came into it with a bad faith argument and no standing.

Like I've said (and you ignored) nothing stops you from answering ruling questions for rated duels, volunteer your own time if it means so much to you.

[Sound4]

"Marshie Marshie Marshie" isn't condescending?

You have lost my interest.

I am simply disappointed from you as you are a head admin in which you poorly read my post.

[Genexwrecker]

"Marshie Marshie Marshie" isn't condescending?

You have lost my interest.

I am simply disappointed from you as you are a head admin in which you poorly read my post.

Ur on really thin ice. Iv already removed some of your posts please stop thanks.

[Sound4]

"Marshie Marshie Marshie" isn't condescending?

You have lost my interest.

I am simply disappointed from you as you are a head admin in which you poorly read my post.

Ur on really thin ice. Iv already removed some of your posts please stop thanks.

Have I done something that has broken the rules?

[ominous]

I am simply disappointed from you as you are a head admin in which you poorly read my post.

Ur on really thin ice. Iv already removed some of your posts please stop thanks.

Have I done something that has broken the rules?

The admin and judge tells you to stop and have removed your posts and only now you think you've broken the rules?

[Sound4]

Ur on really thin ice. Iv already removed some of your posts please stop thanks.

Have I done something that has broken the rules?

The admin and judge tells you to stop and have removed your posts and only now you think you've broken the rules?

I am asking what have I done that has broken the rules. Regardless DB has peaked a long time ago and the issue with DB won't get any better with this flawed system. At any rate DB will probably go on the decline as you can see there are more people complaining about this issue and tired of it. Whether DB wants to fix this system is their choice.

[ScottyAdams]

Uhh, guys - why are we treating "online" as not being a part of real life? This isn't some alternate reality kind of thing.

Online is still "real life".

What you should be referring to is "personal" or offline.

Online and real life are completely different. Hence the entire reason this topic even exists

No, they're not. We're not in an idealised or fictional space - everything that happens here is not a distortion or reality.

"Personal" life would be a better way of putting it, or "offline".

[Renji Asuka]

They are doing their job they just aren't doing it on your schedule, they're judges, not babysitters. Want a better environment to play in? Make one.

I never said they had to do it on my schedule. You're still creating laziness by providing excuses instead of expecting better from the judges.

But hey, if you rather have mediocrity that's your choice.

If I wanted to pander to mediocrity I'd continue this conversation in earnest but you came into it with a bad faith argument and no standing.

Like I've said (and you ignored) nothing stops you from answering ruling questions for rated duels, volunteer your own time if it means so much to you.

There is no "bad faith argument", you just simply disagree with me, and that's fine.

[Christen57]

This is now the fourth thread where you Renji Asuka complain and bicker about there not being a judge schedule despite being told no over and over.

The first: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?p=72818#p72818
The second: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?p=63386#p63386
The third: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?p=57780#p57780

So for the fourth time, I address your arguments.

Or, here's an idea.

Create a schedule for the volunteers.

And yes, even volunteers have to abide by a schedule when they volunteer to do stuff.

Actually you don’t go off somebody else’s schedule when you volunteer. You go off your own. Its volunteer. Aka not something one needs go do and does when they are able to. They volunteer at places and hours that work for them not the owner. The entire point of volunteer is it something extra you do in your free time not someone else’s. Even these so called places that demand volunteer schedules still have people working at only hours the volunteer can work or agree to. Hobbies like this also cannot remotely be compared to an actual volunteer job. Even the owner just does things when they are able and not on a schedule no matter how badly the site may need it.

Actually you do go off someone's schedule when you volunteer.

I volunteered at the church to pass out food each month, guess what? I have to be there by 9 AM to help set everything up and to pass out food as people come early.

I have volunteered to help set up plays, again I had to show up at a certain time.

So this idea that "you don't go off somebody's else's schedule when you volunteer" isn't an actual argument. All you're doing is creating excuses.

If the site or company you volunteer at requires you to show up at a specific time / schedule, that's their choice. They choose to require its volunteers to show up on a specific schedule.
Duelingbook's choice is different. Duelingbook chooses to allow its judges to show up at any point throughout the day they're available and when there's a judge call that needs answering. There's nothing inherently wrong with Duelinbook choosing to do these things slightly differently than the volunteer companies you're used to.

Actually you do go off someone's schedule when you volunteer.

I volunteered at the church to pass out food each month, guess what? I have to be there by 9 AM to help set everything up and to pass out food as people come early.

I have volunteered to help set up plays, again I had to show up at a certain time.

So this idea that "you don't go off somebody's else's schedule when you volunteer" isn't an actual argument. All you're doing is creating excuses.

I'm confused on what argument you think I'm making. If I set up schedules for my volunteer judges, they will leave. It is that simple. And I can't stop them from leaving, because I don't hold any leverage over them...because they are volunteers. And while I let Genexwrecker have SkyFyre13 and Tote as slaves, I don't hold all of them as slaves (for legal reasons, that's a joke).

These aren't excuses. It's reality.

So you're saying that your judges are so self centered that heaven forbid they pop on for an hour a day at a consistent time frame that will cause them to leave?

What's with your use of the term "self-centered"? Accusing judges of being self-centered is accusing them of being selfish and evil which is a bold accusation.

Some judges can find time to log in for a certain number of hours a day at a consistent timeframe, but not all judges can, so we have to let the judges operate on their own hours, and leave the other judges be who are unable to schedule specific hours.

Idk, if the judges were to leave because of a schedule, they shouldn't had become judges in the first place.

Even if it's volunteer work they are still making a commitment, and if they can't fulfill that commitment then why are they judges in the first place?

This is a valid argument if and only if duelingbook does in fact require judges to abide by specific schedules, but it doesn't, so this isn't an argument.

Also, another major reason comparing judges on this site to the volunteers at your church and food pantry doesn't work — a very important reason you're completely overlooking — is because judges on duelingbook are massively much harder to replace than random volunteers at your local church / food pantry. If someone signs up to come to the church at 9 AM to give out food and they're half an hour or so late, they can easily be fired and very easily replaced with someone else quickly. All you need in order to do decently well at such a volunteer job is to live close enough to the place in question where it won't take too long to get there, to dress appropriately, to follow very basic rules and guidelines, and follow very basic instructions and directions. This is far far easier than passing an extremely difficult judge exam for an extremely complex card game with extremely confusing obscure rulings, and it's even harder with very little time on the clock, and especially when if you fail you have to wait over a YEAR or two before you can attempt it again.

We absolutely do NOT need to make it any harder to serve as a duelingbook judge than it already is by requiring them to now abide by some kind of fixed schedule on top of all the other astronomically strict requirements to becoming and remaining a judge, because duelingbook realistically cannot afford to make such things harder at this time. When a certain group of people that are in such high demand (duelingbook judges) are that difficult to replace, you can't afford to further disincentivize new people from becoming a member of that group by introducing mandatory judge schedules.

Volunteering to hand out food at a church takes nowhere near as much skill as becoming and remaining a successful duelingbook judge. If a bunch of people quit the volunteer food pantry / church thing, it's hardly a big deal since those people will be too easy to replace since literally any high school graduate with no other education or vocational training can replace said people. If the majority of our judges on the other hand quit because we start requiring them to follow a schedule (MarshieDemon confirmed that that many of them would), it would deal a massively bigger blow.

When someone in such high demand is so hard to replace, you MUST try your best to make their life easy by at least doing things like letting them come online on their own personal schedules.

Also the idea that a schedule couldn't work is really silly, as a schedule can be made around each of the judges to pop on throughout the day.

The admins aren't telling you any "idea" that a schedule couldn't work. They are telling you a tested fact that making all judges work on a schedule doesn't work. Genexwrecker confirmed this.

You can also provide an incentive for people to be judges if they work on the schedule for example (implying this isn't a thing already) they could get free donation stuff at a week's worth or so.

The judges have confirmed that they, for every call they answer, get a certain amount of supporter status where they can use custom avatars and sleeves.

So again, all I'm hearing is excuses cause if you only try to think about how it can't work instead of how it can work we'd be here all day.

Genexwrecker and MarshieDemon didn't give you an excuse. They gave you a reason.

An excuse would be if they just didn't want to assign the judges schedules, when they easily could without issue.

In this case, it's not that they don't want to. They already made it clear they would LOVE to give the judges schedules so there would always be at least 1 judge available 24/7, but the case here is that they CAN'T.

Please understand the different between reason and excuse before you continue accusing staff of "excuses". https://titanstkd.com.au/excuse-vs-reason-what-is-the-difference/

If judges are not doing their job, they should not be judges.

Except right now it's not part of their job to be on a schedule, nor should it be. Judging isn't even a job in the sense that they're getting paid for this. Trying to force making a schedule on volunteers looks to be a lazy attempt at a solution that's only going to make the problem worse. They did not sign up for a schedule to be forced upon them. There's no reason to tell volunteers "if you can't always help me on these exact times I don't want any of your help at all" for this situation.

So you rather the judge be nothing more than a glorified social club? Because that is exactly what it is currently.

Referring to the judge team as any sort of "club" isn't an argument. You think that's what they are? Okay. Fine. They're a club. Sure...

Doesn't change the fact that they still can't afford to require all judges to operate on a fixed schedule.

Or, here's an idea.

Create a schedule for the volunteers.

And yes, even volunteers have to abide by a schedule when they volunteer to do stuff.

Actually you don’t go off somebody else’s schedule when you volunteer. You go off your own. Its volunteer. Aka not something one needs go do and does when they are able to. They volunteer at places and hours that work for them not the owner. The entire point of volunteer is it something extra you do in your free time not someone else’s. Even these so called places that demand volunteer schedules still have people working at only hours the volunteer can work or agree to. Hobbies like this also cannot remotely be compared to an actual volunteer job. Even the owner just does things when they are able and not on a schedule no matter how badly the site may need it.

Yes you actually do have to (generally) abide by a schedule for volunteering.

If you volunteer to feed the homeless lunch, you still show up an hour or 2 earlier to help set things up, stick around to feed them, then stay to help clean things up (though I seen people leave during the clean up process).

If you volunteer to help a person move, you still should show up as early as possible to beat the heat (if in the summer).

But the way I see it, being a judge is nothing more than a glorified club.

Hell just having them online (not necessarily taking judge calls) can at least create the illusion that judges are active and will make people think twice before cheating.

Judges cannot keep existing the way it is currently as they are useless. When judges are not online for 99% of the time that's a problem. No I'm not saying that judges should be online 24/7.

There's a reason why I haven't played in Ranked in a long time (not talking about GOAT ranked as I did that semi recently just to get a feel for GOAT again) cause I find myself to get into weird situations when it comes to card rulings with no clear answer and because a judge wasn't on after 10 minutes of needing a judge, my opponent straight up quit the game. I shouldn't be able to get wins like that in ranked.

The situation was something like my opponent having a monster and I used Crackdown on it to take it. My opponent used I think Mind Control to take it back. So I tell my opponent, I never been in this situation before, so I ask them wouldn't the monster just come back to me? My opponent said yes yet they still kept spamming the target of the monster. While there was some communication issue there, I called a judge hoping to get someone more knowledgeable. I wasn't trying to steal a game I just genuinely didn't know how to proceed with that and nothing I saw online had any info for this situation.

So how can situations like this resolve properly if no judge ever goes online?

You claimed (I can't back it up one way or the other) you already tried a schedule and it didn't work. So why didn't it work? From an outsider's perspective the judges are not willing to do the job they willingly signed up for which goes back to the argument I had. Why are you a judge if you can't dedicate a set time to be active as a judge?

It didn't work, probably because, like I said, not every judge has the time to follow a consistent schedule. Some judges have real life stuff going on where they don't know when the next time they'll have free time will be. Some judges have their own constantly changing schedules outside of Duelingbook where, on Mondays they're available to judge only in the morning, on Tuesdays they're available to judge only in the afternoon, but then out of nowhere, the situation flips and now they're available to judge only in the afternoon on Mondays and only in the morning on Tuesdays. Not to mention nobody knows when each of those judges' next real life thing will come up that will require them to cancel their next judge shift(s) at the last minute...

Making every judge abide by a specific schedule would only work if we could very accurately predict the times they'd be available, but those times each judge is available every day or week changes often and will vary wildly.

This is why comparing judging on duelingbook to handling out food at your local church / pantry doesn't work. There are many careers, jobs, and volunteer opportunities out there, and people choose these things based on their wants and needs. If a person is comfortable volunteering for a position where they know he will have to show up at a specific time, and he's certain he can consistently abide by that schedule, he'll sign up for that position.

Other people on the other hand who have no idea when they will and will not be available each day of the week, or each week of the month, will instead sign up for positions such as this one that allow far more flexibility as to when they should be online. Different people with different lives and things going on in said lives need different amounts of time flexibility. Some people can handle having very limited flexibility in their lives, so they sign up for positions like your church / pantry that requires them to show up at X o'clock and work for at least X hours. Others can't handle limited flexibility. Instead, those others need a ton of flexibility, so they sign up for positions that allow that extra flexibility such as becoming a judge on this platform that allows that extra flexibility.

That's why Genexwrecker and MarshieDemon keep warning you that most judges here would be forced to quit if we try to force them to abide by a schedule — most judges are people who signed up for this position knowing they would both need, and have, that extra flexibility Duelingbook provides.

You keep pushing for this one-size-fits-all scheduling idea onto judges when said idea won't fit them all and never did fit them all.

Irrelevant, volunteer work is volunteer work regardless if it's online or real life.

Irrelevant kinda like you arguing, the answer won't change, the problem is not judges db needs better players.

Glad you're okay with judges being lazy and not doing their job.

Needing lots of flexibility and seeking it out by only applying for positions like this one that allow such flexibility isn't laziness.

You keep throwing around terms you don't truly know, using incorrect terms, and making bad comparisons and analogies. These judges are far from lazy. They have a ton on their plate. They have a ton of real life stuff going on they take care of — stuff they have to prioritize over judging on this platform. A judge who has to work 50+ hours a week in real life just to support himself, his family, or both, is "lazy" by your logic because every 2 or 3 weeks he only has enough time to log in to duelingbook for 10-20 minutes to do some judging and can't follow any judge schedule because of his own hectic real life schedule... but you don't consider any of that. All you see and think is "judge can't follow fixed schedule? mUsT bE a laZy bUm!"

I urge you to really think this idea of yours through before you keep pushing it further and annoying Genexwrecker and MarshieDemon with your accusations of "laziness" and "excuses". We have over 70 judges at the moment, all with their own timeframes, schedules, and other real life things they'll frequently have to prioritize over duelingbook. We have no idea which of those judges' availabilities will fluctuate, how or when they will, or how much they will.

I urge you to think through how much work it would take to go through the schedules of 70+ different people to see when each of them would most likely be available each week/month to see who can and should login at what times of each day of each of those weeks/months.

I urge you to think through how tedious it would be to coordinate 70+ different judges, and determine who will be online at 1 o'clock, who will be online at 2:30, who will be online at 3 o'clock, and so on, because I assume you would then also have to figure out who will each of those judges' substitutes / backup judges will be should that judge himself either fail to show up at his assigned time, or show up at his assigned time but gets burnout or something after taking just 1 call for the day so he logs off early to go rest. So I assume you'd have reserve judges ready for those kinds of scenario.

I urge you to think through how exhausting it would be to constantly monitor and keep up to date the schedules of all 70+ judges when each day at least some of their schedules will fluctuate resulting in them having more time for judging, less time for judging, or the time they can spend judging changing to different hours of the day, different days of the week, or different weeks of the month.

Since you clearly aren't thinking these things through, let me show you how mathematically difficult and tedious it would be to get all the judges' schedules from Monday to Friday to see when they'll each be available at what hours of the day and at what days of the week.

Say we try to plan out and implement your schedule idea. I assume we'd start be checking a single judge's availability for 12 AM to 12:30 AM, 12:30 AM to 1 AM, 1 AM to 1:30 AM, 1:30 AM to 2 AM, and so on, all the way to 11:30 PM back to 12 AM.

There are 24 hours in a day, and when you break that up into timeframes where it's also the hour number followed by :30 then that gives you 48 different timeframes: 12 AM, 1 AM, 2 AM, and so on, all the way to 11 PM, followed by 12:30 AM, 1:30 AM, 2:30 AM, and so on, all the way to 11:30 PM.

So we have to calculate that single judge's availability during each of those 48 different timeframes. He might be available 12 AM to 12:30 AM, unavailable 12:30 AM to... 5 AM, available 5 AM to 6:30 AM... so so far he's available at least 4 different 30 minute timeframes. For the remaining 44 30-minute timeframes, he may be available, unavailable, or some combination of both.

However, remember that there are 70+ judges at the moment, so we'd have to calculate 70+ different judges' availabilities during each of those 48 timeframes.

70 * 48 = 3,360

Then we have to calculate all of those availabilities for 7 days of the week, not just 1 day of the week, so we multiply 3,360 by 7.

3,360 * 7 = 23,520

This is what I mean when I say how difficult and tedious it would be to get the judges' availabilities and organize them properly into a judge schedule.

However, maybe that wasn't what you had in mind. Maybe what you had in mind when you suggest judge schedules was something more like this:



In other words, some kind of online Google/SharePoint spreadsheet the judges have access to, where each judge would input their username in corresponding cells to indicate what time(s) of day on each day of the week they'll be available. For example, if I was a judge following such a schedule, and I believe I'd be available to judge on the next Thursday at around 6:30 AM, I'd put my username in cell E15.



If that's more like what you had in mind, then I'm afraid even that wouldn't work as easily or nicely as you hope, let alone for many of the judges. Like, how early in advance would I have to put my username in that cell, first of all? A day in advance? Two days in advance? What if my real life schedule is so hectic that I'll only know that I'll be available at a specific 30-minute block of the day no more than an hour or two in advance? What if I put my name in, but I have to take my name out at the last minute because something just came up in my personal life I have to attend to?

Once you think this idea of yours through carefully and logically like I've done for you in this post, you realize that there are just far too many things that would have to be considered, and things that could go wrong with this judge schedule idea, for the admins to give said idea another shot, and the admins know this.

[Renji Asuka]

This is now the fourth thread where you Renji Asuka complain and bicker about there not being a judge schedule despite being told no over and over.

The first: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?p=72818#p72818
The second: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?p=63386#p63386
The third: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?p=57780#p57780

So for the fourth time, I address your arguments.

Actually you don’t go off somebody else’s schedule when you volunteer. You go off your own. Its volunteer. Aka not something one needs go do and does when they are able to. They volunteer at places and hours that work for them not the owner. The entire point of volunteer is it something extra you do in your free time not someone else’s. Even these so called places that demand volunteer schedules still have people working at only hours the volunteer can work or agree to. Hobbies like this also cannot remotely be compared to an actual volunteer job. Even the owner just does things when they are able and not on a schedule no matter how badly the site may need it.

Actually you do go off someone's schedule when you volunteer.

I volunteered at the church to pass out food each month, guess what? I have to be there by 9 AM to help set everything up and to pass out food as people come early.

I have volunteered to help set up plays, again I had to show up at a certain time.

So this idea that "you don't go off somebody's else's schedule when you volunteer" isn't an actual argument. All you're doing is creating excuses.

If the site or company you volunteer at requires you to show up at a specific time / schedule, that's their choice. They choose to require its volunteers to show up on a specific schedule.
Duelingbook's choice is different. Duelingbook chooses to allow its judges to show up at any point throughout the day they're available and when there's a judge call that needs answering. There's nothing inherently wrong with Duelinbook choosing to do these things slightly differently than the volunteer companies you're used to.

I'm confused on what argument you think I'm making. If I set up schedules for my volunteer judges, they will leave. It is that simple. And I can't stop them from leaving, because I don't hold any leverage over them...because they are volunteers. And while I let Genexwrecker have SkyFyre13 and Tote as slaves, I don't hold all of them as slaves (for legal reasons, that's a joke).

These aren't excuses. It's reality.

So you're saying that your judges are so self centered that heaven forbid they pop on for an hour a day at a consistent time frame that will cause them to leave?

What's with your use of the term "self-centered"? Accusing judges of being self-centered is accusing them of being selfish and evil which is a bold accusation.

Some judges can find time to log in for a certain number of hours a day at a consistent timeframe, but not all judges can, so we have to let the judges operate on their own hours, and leave the other judges be who are unable to schedule specific hours.

Idk, if the judges were to leave because of a schedule, they shouldn't had become judges in the first place.

Even if it's volunteer work they are still making a commitment, and if they can't fulfill that commitment then why are they judges in the first place?

This is a valid argument if and only if duelingbook does in fact require judges to abide by specific schedules, but it doesn't, so this isn't an argument.

Also, another major reason comparing judges on this site to the volunteers at your church and food pantry doesn't work — a very important reason you're completely overlooking — is because judges on duelingbook are massively much harder to replace than random volunteers at your local church / food pantry. If someone signs up to come to the church at 9 AM to give out food and they're half an hour or so late, they can easily be fired and very easily replaced with someone else quickly. All you need in order to do decently well at such a volunteer job is to live close enough to the place in question where it won't take too long to get there, to dress appropriately, to follow very basic rules and guidelines, and follow very basic instructions and directions. This is far far easier than passing an extremely difficult judge exam for an extremely complex card game with extremely confusing obscure rulings, and it's even harder with very little time on the clock, and especially when if you fail you have to wait over a YEAR or two before you can attempt it again.

We absolutely do NOT need to make it any harder to serve as a duelingbook judge than it already is by requiring them to now abide by some kind of fixed schedule on top of all the other astronomically strict requirements to becoming and remaining a judge, because duelingbook realistically cannot afford to make such things harder at this time. When a certain group of people that are in such high demand (duelingbook judges) are that difficult to replace, you can't afford to further disincentivize new people from becoming a member of that group by introducing mandatory judge schedules.

Volunteering to hand out food at a church takes nowhere near as much skill as becoming and remaining a successful duelingbook judge. If a bunch of people quit the volunteer food pantry / church thing, it's hardly a big deal since those people will be too easy to replace since literally any high school graduate with no other education or vocational training can replace said people. If the majority of our judges on the other hand quit because we start requiring them to follow a schedule (MarshieDemon confirmed that that many of them would), it would deal a massively bigger blow.

When someone in such high demand is so hard to replace, you MUST try your best to make their life easy by at least doing things like letting them come online on their own personal schedules.

Also the idea that a schedule couldn't work is really silly, as a schedule can be made around each of the judges to pop on throughout the day.

The admins aren't telling you any "idea" that a schedule couldn't work. They are telling you a tested fact that making all judges work on a schedule doesn't work. Genexwrecker confirmed this.

You can also provide an incentive for people to be judges if they work on the schedule for example (implying this isn't a thing already) they could get free donation stuff at a week's worth or so.

The judges have confirmed that they, for every call they answer, get a certain amount of supporter status where they can use custom avatars and sleeves.

So again, all I'm hearing is excuses cause if you only try to think about how it can't work instead of how it can work we'd be here all day.

Genexwrecker and MarshieDemon didn't give you an excuse. They gave you a reason.

An excuse would be if they just didn't want to assign the judges schedules, when they easily could without issue.

In this case, it's not that they don't want to. They already made it clear they would LOVE to give the judges schedules so there would always be at least 1 judge available 24/7, but the case here is that they CAN'T.

Please understand the different between reason and excuse before you continue accusing staff of "excuses". https://titanstkd.com.au/excuse-vs-reason-what-is-the-difference/

Except right now it's not part of their job to be on a schedule, nor should it be. Judging isn't even a job in the sense that they're getting paid for this. Trying to force making a schedule on volunteers looks to be a lazy attempt at a solution that's only going to make the problem worse. They did not sign up for a schedule to be forced upon them. There's no reason to tell volunteers "if you can't always help me on these exact times I don't want any of your help at all" for this situation.

So you rather the judge be nothing more than a glorified social club? Because that is exactly what it is currently.

Referring to the judge team as any sort of "club" isn't an argument. You think that's what they are? Okay. Fine. They're a club. Sure...

Doesn't change the fact that they still can't afford to require all judges to operate on a fixed schedule.

Actually you don’t go off somebody else’s schedule when you volunteer. You go off your own. Its volunteer. Aka not something one needs go do and does when they are able to. They volunteer at places and hours that work for them not the owner. The entire point of volunteer is it something extra you do in your free time not someone else’s. Even these so called places that demand volunteer schedules still have people working at only hours the volunteer can work or agree to. Hobbies like this also cannot remotely be compared to an actual volunteer job. Even the owner just does things when they are able and not on a schedule no matter how badly the site may need it.

Yes you actually do have to (generally) abide by a schedule for volunteering.

If you volunteer to feed the homeless lunch, you still show up an hour or 2 earlier to help set things up, stick around to feed them, then stay to help clean things up (though I seen people leave during the clean up process).

If you volunteer to help a person move, you still should show up as early as possible to beat the heat (if in the summer).

But the way I see it, being a judge is nothing more than a glorified club.

Hell just having them online (not necessarily taking judge calls) can at least create the illusion that judges are active and will make people think twice before cheating.

Judges cannot keep existing the way it is currently as they are useless. When judges are not online for 99% of the time that's a problem. No I'm not saying that judges should be online 24/7.

There's a reason why I haven't played in Ranked in a long time (not talking about GOAT ranked as I did that semi recently just to get a feel for GOAT again) cause I find myself to get into weird situations when it comes to card rulings with no clear answer and because a judge wasn't on after 10 minutes of needing a judge, my opponent straight up quit the game. I shouldn't be able to get wins like that in ranked.

The situation was something like my opponent having a monster and I used Crackdown on it to take it. My opponent used I think Mind Control to take it back. So I tell my opponent, I never been in this situation before, so I ask them wouldn't the monster just come back to me? My opponent said yes yet they still kept spamming the target of the monster. While there was some communication issue there, I called a judge hoping to get someone more knowledgeable. I wasn't trying to steal a game I just genuinely didn't know how to proceed with that and nothing I saw online had any info for this situation.

So how can situations like this resolve properly if no judge ever goes online?

You claimed (I can't back it up one way or the other) you already tried a schedule and it didn't work. So why didn't it work? From an outsider's perspective the judges are not willing to do the job they willingly signed up for which goes back to the argument I had. Why are you a judge if you can't dedicate a set time to be active as a judge?

It didn't work, probably because, like I said, not every judge has the time to follow a consistent schedule. Some judges have real life stuff going on where they don't know when the next time they'll have free time will be. Some judges have their own constantly changing schedules outside of Duelingbook where, on Mondays they're available to judge only in the morning, on Tuesdays they're available to judge only in the afternoon, but then out of nowhere, the situation flips and now they're available to judge only in the afternoon on Mondays and only in the morning on Tuesdays. Not to mention nobody knows when each of those judges' next real life thing will come up that will require them to cancel their next judge shift(s) at the last minute...

Making every judge abide by a specific schedule would only work if we could very accurately predict the times they'd be available, but those times each judge is available every day or week changes often and will vary wildly.

This is why comparing judging on duelingbook to handling out food at your local church / pantry doesn't work. There are many careers, jobs, and volunteer opportunities out there, and people choose these things based on their wants and needs. If a person is comfortable volunteering for a position where they know he will have to show up at a specific time, and he's certain he can consistently abide by that schedule, he'll sign up for that position.

Other people on the other hand who have no idea when they will and will not be available each day of the week, or each week of the month, will instead sign up for positions such as this one that allow far more flexibility as to when they should be online. Different people with different lives and things going on in said lives need different amounts of time flexibility. Some people can handle having very limited flexibility in their lives, so they sign up for positions like your church / pantry that requires them to show up at X o'clock and work for at least X hours. Others can't handle limited flexibility. Instead, those others need a ton of flexibility, so they sign up for positions that allow that extra flexibility such as becoming a judge on this platform that allows that extra flexibility.

That's why Genexwrecker and MarshieDemon keep warning you that most judges here would be forced to quit if we try to force them to abide by a schedule — most judges are people who signed up for this position knowing they would both need, and have, that extra flexibility Duelingbook provides.

You keep pushing for this one-size-fits-all scheduling idea onto judges when said idea won't fit them all and never did fit them all.

Irrelevant kinda like you arguing, the answer won't change, the problem is not judges db needs better players.

Glad you're okay with judges being lazy and not doing their job.

Needing lots of flexibility and seeking it out by only applying for positions like this one that allow such flexibility isn't laziness.

You keep throwing around terms you don't truly know, using incorrect terms, and making bad comparisons and analogies. These judges are far from lazy. They have a ton on their plate. They have a ton of real life stuff going on they take care of — stuff they have to prioritize over judging on this platform. A judge who has to work 50+ hours a week in real life just to support himself, his family, or both, is "lazy" by your logic because every 2 or 3 weeks he only has enough time to log in to duelingbook for 10-20 minutes to do some judging and can't follow any judge schedule because of his own hectic real life schedule... but you don't consider any of that. All you see and think is "judge can't follow fixed schedule? mUsT bE a laZy bUm!"

I urge you to really think this idea of yours through before you keep pushing it further and annoying Genexwrecker and MarshieDemon with your accusations of "laziness" and "excuses". We have over 70 judges at the moment, all with their own timeframes, schedules, and other real life things they'll frequently have to prioritize over duelingbook. We have no idea which of those judges' availabilities will fluctuate, how or when they will, or how much they will.

I urge you to think through how much work it would take to go through the schedules of 70+ different people to see when each of them would most likely be available each week/month to see who can and should login at what times of each day of each of those weeks/months.

I urge you to think through how tedious it would be to coordinate 70+ different judges, and determine who will be online at 1 o'clock, who will be online at 2:30, who will be online at 3 o'clock, and so on, because I assume you would then also have to figure out who will each of those judges' substitutes / backup judges will be should that judge himself either fail to show up at his assigned time, or show up at his assigned time but gets burnout or something after taking just 1 call for the day so he logs off early to go rest. So I assume you'd have reserve judges ready for those kinds of scenario.

I urge you to think through how exhausting it would be to constantly monitor and keep up to date the schedules of all 70+ judges when each day at least some of their schedules will fluctuate resulting in them having more time for judging, less time for judging, or the time they can spend judging changing to different hours of the day, different days of the week, or different weeks of the month.

Since you clearly aren't thinking these things through, let me show you how mathematically difficult and tedious it would be to get all the judges' schedules from Monday to Friday to see when they'll each be available at what hours of the day and at what days of the week.

Say we try to plan out and implement your schedule idea. I assume we'd start be checking a single judge's availability for 12 AM to 12:30 AM, 12:30 AM to 1 AM, 1 AM to 1:30 AM, 1:30 AM to 2 AM, and so on, all the way to 11:30 PM back to 12 AM.

There are 24 hours in a day, and when you break that up into timeframes where it's also the hour number followed by :30 then that gives you 48 different timeframes: 12 AM, 1 AM, 2 AM, and so on, all the way to 11 PM, followed by 12:30 AM, 1:30 AM, 2:30 AM, and so on, all the way to 11:30 PM.

So we have to calculate that single judge's availability during each of those 48 different timeframes. He might be available 12 AM to 12:30 AM, unavailable 12:30 AM to... 5 AM, available 5 AM to 6:30 AM... so so far he's available at least 4 different 30 minute timeframes. For the remaining 44 30-minute timeframes, he may be available, unavailable, or some combination of both.

However, remember that there are 70+ judges at the moment, so we'd have to calculate 70+ different judges' availabilities during each of those 48 timeframes.

70 * 48 = 3,360

Then we have to calculate all of those availabilities for 7 days of the week, not just 1 day of the week, so we multiply 3,360 by 7.

3,360 * 7 = 23,520

This is what I mean when I say how difficult and tedious it would be to get the judges' availabilities and organize them properly into a judge schedule.

However, maybe that wasn't what you had in mind. Maybe what you had in mind when you suggest judge schedules was something more like this:



In other words, some kind of online Google/SharePoint spreadsheet the judges have access to, where each judge would input their username in corresponding cells to indicate what time(s) of day on each day of the week they'll be available. For example, if I was a judge following such a schedule, and I believe I'd be available to judge on the next Thursday at around 6:30 AM, I'd put my username in cell E15.



If that's more like what you had in mind, then I'm afraid even that wouldn't work as easily or nicely as you hope, let alone for many of the judges. Like, how early in advance would I have to put my username in that cell, first of all? A day in advance? Two days in advance? What if my real life schedule is so hectic that I'll only know that I'll be available at a specific 30-minute block of the day no more than an hour or two in advance? What if I put my name in, but I have to take my name out at the last minute because something just came up in my personal life I have to attend to?

Once you think this idea of yours through carefully and logically like I've done for you in this post, you realize that there are just far too many things that would have to be considered, and things that could go wrong with this judge schedule idea, for the admins to give said idea another shot, and the admins know this.

You're not going to change my mind my guy.

If you choose to volunteer for something, I will expect you to show up ON TIME. Doesn't matter if it's real life or online.

Don't show up, then expect not to be welcome.

[Christen57]

You're not going to change my mind my guy.

If you choose to volunteer for something, I will expect you to show up ON TIME. Doesn't matter if it's real life or online.

Don't show up, then expect not to be welcome.

Read my post. I said:

If the site or company you volunteer at requires you to show up at a specific time / schedule, that's their choice. They choose to require its volunteers to show up on a specific schedule.
Duelingbook's choice is different. Duelingbook chooses to allow its judges to show up at any point throughout the day they're available and when there's a judge call that needs answering. There's nothing wrong with Duelinbook choosing to do these things slightly differently than the volunteer companies you're used to.

It's the organization's choice if they want to require volunteers to show up on time or not. Duelingbook has chosen not to compared to the organizations you're used to that do require volunteers to show up on a specific time.

[Renji Asuka]

You're not going to change my mind my guy.

If you choose to volunteer for something, I will expect you to show up ON TIME. Doesn't matter if it's real life or online.

Don't show up, then expect not to be welcome.

Read my post. I said:

If the site or company you volunteer at requires you to show up at a specific time / schedule, that's their choice. They choose to require its volunteers to show up on a specific schedule.
Duelingbook's choice is different. Duelingbook chooses to allow its judges to show up at any point throughout the day they're available and when there's a judge call that needs answering. There's nothing wrong with Duelinbook choosing to do these things slightly differently than the volunteer companies you're used to.

It's the organization's choice if they want to require volunteers to show up on time or not. Duelingbook has chosen not to compared to the organizations you're used to that do require volunteers to show up on a specific time.

Yes, which brings up my previous point that being a judge is nothing more than being a part of a glorified club.

[Genexwrecker]

You're not going to change my mind my guy.

If you choose to volunteer for something, I will expect you to show up ON TIME. Doesn't matter if it's real life or online.

Don't show up, then expect not to be welcome.

Read my post. I said:

If the site or company you volunteer at requires you to show up at a specific time / schedule, that's their choice. They choose to require its volunteers to show up on a specific schedule.
Duelingbook's choice is different. Duelingbook chooses to allow its judges to show up at any point throughout the day they're available and when there's a judge call that needs answering. There's nothing wrong with Duelinbook choosing to do these things slightly differently than the volunteer companies you're used to.

It's the organization's choice if they want to require volunteers to show up on time or not. Duelingbook has chosen not to compared to the organizations you're used to that do require volunteers to show up on a specific time.

Yes, which brings up my previous point that being a judge is nothing more than being a part of a glorified club.

If im in a club I want a refund

[Cromat]

If im in a club I want a refund

Dear Genexwrecker, the $0 you deserve has been deposited in your bank account in return for your service terminated in return for your voluntary service of more than 6 years. We hope you get back to us as soon as possible, we need your volunteer services. Have a nice day(s) with best regards.. Your high ranked Duelist obliterator;
Cromat

[ominous]

The solution isn't more judges, it's fewer dumb players and people who enable them.