Competition on DB Rated

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Christen57
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Re: Competition on DB Rated

Post #61 by Christen57 » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:36 pm

Lil Oldman wrote:
Christen57 wrote:Krawler plays both Rivalry of Warlords and Gozen Match, and so on.

Wait what? I never thought of playing Gozen or Rivalry


I experimented with the cards and they're okay in Krawlers since Krawlers are all EARTH Insect, but they can backfire since they also restrict you from non-EARTH/non-Insect monsters.

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Post #62 by Sound4 » Sun May 01, 2022 8:45 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
I'll watch them, starting with your duel against IHAVEMOUSTACHE. https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=38292678
This replay ends with you randomly quitting for some reason after using Triple Tactics Talent. Speaking of that card, I'm not sure if running even 1, let alone 2, copies of it is a good idea. It being hard once per turn makes it especially awful, as you now want to run 3 copies to ensure you see it often, but at the same time don't want to run 3 because one of them becomes a dead card if you open up with 2, and it's not a starter either, so you wouldn't want to run multiple copies of that for that reason either. It may be help you against hand traps, but I'd rather play more extenders that let you play through hand traps (such as Monster Reborn).

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=38270003
In this replay, you lose to ThePendulumGOD because you keep blowing your own field up with Torrential Tribute until you run completely out of cards while they still have cards.

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=38270263
In this replay, you quit before the duel even starts, giving Malakai10 free rating/exp which is probably boosting.

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=38264417
This duel of yours against palameda is why I dislike running hand traps so much unless they actually synergize with the deck in question. I prefer to instead play cards (such as The Winged Dragon of Ra - Sphere Mode) that can actually break boards instead of just monsters with hand effects that may or may not slow down the opponent as they assemble said boards.

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=38269892
Now, I already told Lil Oldman this, but I'll tell you as well. It's not a good idea to play more than 1 copy of a hand trap that's hard once per turn. In this case, since you ended up drawing a total of 2 Ash Blossoms, you could only activate 1 while the other remained a dead card in your hand throughout the opponent's turn. Replace 1 of those Ash Blossoms with another hand trap that either doesn't have a hard once per turn or is one you're not already running. It's better to draw 2 different hand traps that can each be used in the same turn than to draw 2 copies of the same hard-once-per-turn hand trap only able to use 1 of them that turn. If that second Ash Blossom in your hand had been a different hand trap, you may have been able to stop Kongziii from combo-ing off. Similarly, in your previous duel with ThePendulumGOD, if your second Ghost Ogre in that game had been something else, you more likely would've been able to stop that player from combo-ing off as well.
I also don't recommend Crossout Designator, not even as a side deck option. It's too restrictive and bricky in the TCG, and is only good in the OCG because Maxx "C" is at 3 over there and is run in the vast majority of that format's decks due to being so powerful.

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=38029621
In this replay, galzo misplayed and cheated (or at least attempted to) multiple times. He puts up an omni-negate by setting up Wandering Gryphon Rider + the Adventurer Token, but then wastes that token on a Link Spider thus losing his omni-negate and being stuck with a now-useless 2800-DEF vanilla. He adds a monster off of Fateful Adventure but doesn't ditch a card in his hand afterwards, forcing you to remind him to. He then attempts to special summon after already using Predaplant Verte Anaconda's effect to copy Branded Fusion's effect, forcing you to remind him of that as well. In game 2 he actually gets away, this time, with not ditching a card after searching a monster with Fateful Adventure. You, Sound4, misplay as well, wasting a precious Nibiru to get rid of only 1 monster instead of using it on the Predaplant Verte Anaconda and Wandering Gryphon Rider.

Misplays and deck-building choices aside, Renji Asuka's probably right about Unchained being bad. The 2 things this archetype struggles with the most, at least from what I've seen in these replays of yours, are generating card advantage to outgrind opponents (as most of the plays it can make keep making you go +0 or -1 in card advantage), and ending on more than just 1 disruption (as the best boards I saw you assemble were setting a trap and either a monster or another trap, then passing, or, if you were lucky enough, barely managing to get out Unchained Soul of Rage before setting a trap and then passing).
Too many of Unchained's cards are -1s in card advantage, or are bricky and require other specific cards in hand/field to work, and have hardly anything to compensate for these 2 downsides. Abominable Uncahined Soul requires you to lose a card to special summon from the hand then lose another card on top of that just to destroy 1 opponent's card. That's a -1 in card advantage. Unchained Soul of Disaster has no reliable way of getting itself out so it's in most cases gonna be a dead card when you draw it. Unchained Twins - Aruha, and Unchained Twins - Rakea, are also each -1s in card advantage, as you have to first lose a card to special summon either of those monsters, then have whichever you summon be destroyed itself just so you can special summon an Unchained monster from the deck. The only main deck Unchained card that's actually a +1 in card advantage would be the continuous spell, but that requires you to link summon first and does nothing on it's own.
The Unchained archetype's spells/traps want to be face-up and face-down at the same time, further hindering the archetype. It's continuous spell, for example, wants to be face-up so it can activate it's destroying effect, but at the same time wants to remain face-down so it can be destroyed to trigger it's special summoning effect.

I won't go through every replay since what you wrote is too long.


Why were you telling us to watch your replays then if you aren't willing to go through them with us?

The first replay I was getting bored and wanted a competitive match I could have easily won but I wanted a fun and competitive match which wasn't what I found.


In that case, you may be better off going to Advanced Unrated then, and putting in your duel note "competitive decks only" or something.

This post proves that you don't know much about this format.


I know enough.

People are playing a lot of handraps to stop things like Artifact scythe or stopping the opponent on making 4+ negation board.


That's fine. You just don't need to (and shouldn't) run multiple copies of the same hard-once-per-turn hand trap. Ash Blossom, Ghost Ogre, Ghost Mourner, Nibiru, Artifact Lancea, and Ghost Belle should each be at no more than 1 copy. The hand traps you should be running 3 copies of, if you want to run 3 copies of specific hand traps, are Effect Veiler, D.D. Crow, Skull Meister, Typhoon, Infinite Impermanence, and so on.

Also, hand traps aren't the only way to "stop the opponent from making 4+ negation boards". In some decks, it may be better to run cards that can actually take apart such boards, such as Lava Golem and The Winged Dragon of Ra - Sphere Mode. In other decks, it may be better to run Dark Ruler No More or Forbidden Droplet for dealing with such boards.
Have you considered any of these other options aside from just "hand traps"?

Plus I play TTT at 3 since it us an an amazing card for this format since people are playing a lot of handraps.


The card is still too restrictive most of the time to be worth running at even 2, let alone 3. Cards like Monster Reborn help you play through hand traps, but are also good even if the opponent isn't playing any hand traps as you can also just activate it to extend your own plays regardless. Called by the Grave helps shield you against hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate but is also good even against monsters with grave effects in general, as you can also set it and use it in the opponent's turn to stop, for example, Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer, which is also a card many people are running. These 2 spells help you against hand traps but are also good outside of situations involving hand traps. Triple Tactics Talent is too specific, it's hard once per turn restriction is too much, and it doesn't do enough to justify such a restriction, or at least doesn't seem to synergize well enough with Unchained.

Unchained is a control deck not a combo deck and the continuous spell you don't use at all since it isn't good and situational.


If your deck is a control deck then 1) You should be playing powerful control floodgates that work alongside your archetype. Eldlich plays Skill Drain, Altergeist plays Secret Village of the Spellcasters, Shaddoll plays El Shaddoll Winda, Sky Striker plays Mystic Mine, Floowandereeze plays both Floowandereeze & Empen and Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds, Krawler plays both Rivalry of Warlords and Gozen Match, and so on. Since Unchained is, in this case, a Fiend-focused deck, it may help to play (or at least side deck) Rivalry of Warlords and Anti-Spell Fragrance.
2) Hand traps shouldn't hurt your deck much if it's meant to be a control deck. Hand traps are meant to hurt, the most, combo decks.

Watch the replays and watch what happened since you clearly have not.


What else is Greg503 missing from those replays I commented on that I didn't already comment on?

I said watch the replays and I think I replied to the most important ones.

Plus cards like forbidden droplet are good but not like the format in which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were the best decks. Dark ruler no more isn't a quick play spell and ways to get around it. Droplet is good against deck like prank kids and DDD but there are many times in which the card isn't good. Prank kids is the main reason why it is still played. Plus for the other cards you mentioned not everyone has the side space to play those cards.

If you play only one of a hand trap which is once per turn then it is not worth putting in. Ash is a generic card that that stops things like fusion destiny, branded fusion and red eyes fusion important cards that you need ash for.

The Deck can play floodgates but it depends on which cards you are playing as you can play different combinations. What Unchained does is to end on a link 2 rage with some backrow and handraps. This us really good as decks with the Adventure Token Engine and they actually Rite of aramesir you can use rage to link off with the token making the adventure token engine useless at that point. Then you still have other interruption. The Deck may not seem to be good but it causes trouble for a lot of people as they don't know the ins and outside which is why I can beat top decks.

Plus Greg503 hasn't answered any of my points and by his replies he hasn't watched the replays either.

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Post #63 by Sound4 » Sun May 01, 2022 8:58 pm

greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:Compare that to Geist: Meluseek is a +1 most of the time, Multifaker is a +1 that synergizes with Silquitous in multiple ways, Marionetter is a +1 that gets you to a Reborn or a negate. Hextia is a negate that also searches like Meluseek. Spoofing allows you to replace any Altergeist with a better one each turn AND synergizes with Manifestation and Multifaker. This is what a good control archtype does.

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=815175-37947026
A replay of me beating Altergeist easily. Plus the Altergeist profile you showed iis not good you don't use the Adventure Token Engine in an Altergeist deck it doesn't work. Altergeist isn't Cyberse Eldlich since Cyberse Eldlich is simply better. The adventure token engine also stop you normal summon to add an Altergeist card which cannot do anymore because of rite.

You won game 1 because he bricked with cards I don't run, game 2 you tried to Nib in End Phase, lmao. Game 3 was just bad siding, Evenly is bad against a deck that goes -. I with my deck, would win, if I played DB

He was running floodgates like any other trap deck. Plus you didn't answer any of my points on why you're deck isn't as good as you think it is. Plus Unchained doesn't really goes -. If you use aruha to destroy an unchained S/T activates it's effect to summon Sarama from deck and then use ura effect to put the S/T and destroy Aruha. Use Aruba effect to summon abom or disaster and go into link 2 rage set some backrow and pass.

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Post #64 by greg503 » Sun May 01, 2022 11:39 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=815175-37947026
A replay of me beating Altergeist easily. Plus the Altergeist profile you showed iis not good you don't use the Adventure Token Engine in an Altergeist deck it doesn't work. Altergeist isn't Cyberse Eldlich since Cyberse Eldlich is simply better. The adventure token engine also stop you normal summon to add an Altergeist card which cannot do anymore because of rite.

You won game 1 because he bricked with cards I don't run, game 2 you tried to Nib in End Phase, lmao. Game 3 was just bad siding, Evenly is bad against a deck that goes -. I with my deck, would win, if I played DB

He was running floodgates like any other trap deck. Plus you didn't answer any of my points on why you're deck isn't as good as you think it is. Plus Unchained doesn't really goes -. If you use aruha to destroy an unchained S/T activates it's effect to summon Sarama from deck and then use ura effect to put the S/T and destroy Aruha. Use Aruba effect to summon abom or disaster and go into link 2 rage set some backrow and pass.

The Adventurer package ONLY stops Marrionetter and a Normal Summoned Meluseek from using its battle effect. Every other Altergiest you'll Special Summon, or not need to use it's effect the same turn as Aramesir. With Unchained, if you have the Adventurer package, you need to lead with it because the "Twins" lock you into Fiends. You won't always draw both the important Normal and Adventurer on the same hand either. I would rather have Silq than Unchained Rage because Silq affects more cards, on top of Protocol, Spoofing, and Manifestation just being better backrow than "Raigeki Break." Altergeist is even good versus torrential if you have Silq or Protocol established. Cyberse Eldlich is better than Altergiest, but it's much better than Unchained, that's not an argument. As for floodgates, Altergeist has good enough interaction to not need them, although perhaps I should add Skill Drain for the synergy
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Post #65 by Christen57 » Sun May 01, 2022 11:48 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:I won't go through every replay since what you wrote is too long.


Why were you telling us to watch your replays then if you aren't willing to go through them with us?

The first replay I was getting bored and wanted a competitive match I could have easily won but I wanted a fun and competitive match which wasn't what I found.


In that case, you may be better off going to Advanced Unrated then, and putting in your duel note "competitive decks only" or something.

This post proves that you don't know much about this format.


I know enough.

People are playing a lot of handraps to stop things like Artifact scythe or stopping the opponent on making 4+ negation board.


That's fine. You just don't need to (and shouldn't) run multiple copies of the same hard-once-per-turn hand trap. Ash Blossom, Ghost Ogre, Ghost Mourner, Nibiru, Artifact Lancea, and Ghost Belle should each be at no more than 1 copy. The hand traps you should be running 3 copies of, if you want to run 3 copies of specific hand traps, are Effect Veiler, D.D. Crow, Skull Meister, Typhoon, Infinite Impermanence, and so on.

Also, hand traps aren't the only way to "stop the opponent from making 4+ negation boards". In some decks, it may be better to run cards that can actually take apart such boards, such as Lava Golem and The Winged Dragon of Ra - Sphere Mode. In other decks, it may be better to run Dark Ruler No More or Forbidden Droplet for dealing with such boards.
Have you considered any of these other options aside from just "hand traps"?

Plus I play TTT at 3 since it us an an amazing card for this format since people are playing a lot of handraps.


The card is still too restrictive most of the time to be worth running at even 2, let alone 3. Cards like Monster Reborn help you play through hand traps, but are also good even if the opponent isn't playing any hand traps as you can also just activate it to extend your own plays regardless. Called by the Grave helps shield you against hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate but is also good even against monsters with grave effects in general, as you can also set it and use it in the opponent's turn to stop, for example, Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer, which is also a card many people are running. These 2 spells help you against hand traps but are also good outside of situations involving hand traps. Triple Tactics Talent is too specific, it's hard once per turn restriction is too much, and it doesn't do enough to justify such a restriction, or at least doesn't seem to synergize well enough with Unchained.

Unchained is a control deck not a combo deck and the continuous spell you don't use at all since it isn't good and situational.


If your deck is a control deck then 1) You should be playing powerful control floodgates that work alongside your archetype. Eldlich plays Skill Drain, Altergeist plays Secret Village of the Spellcasters, Shaddoll plays El Shaddoll Winda, Sky Striker plays Mystic Mine, Floowandereeze plays both Floowandereeze & Empen and Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds, Krawler plays both Rivalry of Warlords and Gozen Match, and so on. Since Unchained is, in this case, a Fiend-focused deck, it may help to play (or at least side deck) Rivalry of Warlords and Anti-Spell Fragrance.
2) Hand traps shouldn't hurt your deck much if it's meant to be a control deck. Hand traps are meant to hurt, the most, combo decks.

Watch the replays and watch what happened since you clearly have not.


What else is Greg503 missing from those replays I commented on that I didn't already comment on?

If you play only one of a hand trap which is once per turn then it is not worth putting in.


Not true. Some hand traps are better off being ran at 2, and others may be better off being ran at 1. The only hard-once-per-turn hand trap that has always been worth running at 3 whenever possible was Maxx "C" due to how powerful that card was.

Ash is a generic card that that stops things like fusion destiny, branded fusion and red eyes fusion important cards that you need ash for.


Dark Ruler No More, Kaijus, and Santa Claws can stop those cards too. Not just Ash Blossom. Ash Blossom being hard once per turn really hurts since, if the opponent brings out Verte Anaconda, you can Ash that, but then they just activate Fusion Destiny from the hand anyway, so now, instead of your next card being an Ash, it's better off being something that can actually deal with the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer, or Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon, they bring out.

Another major advantage to playing Dark Ruler No More, Kaijus, Forbidden Droplet, or Santa Claws, over Ash Blossom is that, if you rely on Ash Blossom to stop the opponent from resolving the fusion spell, you need to have the Ash Blossom in your hand at the time the fusion spell's activated, but with a Kaiju, even if you don't have it in your hand at that moment, as long as you at least end up drawing it next turn, you can out the fusion monster, whereas if you don't have Ash the moment the fusion spell's activated but instead just draw it in your next turn, it's too late at that point as the fusion has already come out.

On top of that, what if they have both Branded Fusion and Fusion Destiny, or a way to make Verte but also have Fusion Destiny in hand as a backup? If you Ash 1 of those cards they'll just fall back on the other one, which did happen in quite a few of those replays of yours. Lava Golem or Dark Ruler No More would be more suitable in those kinds of situations.

If you want to insist on playing 3 Ash Blossom without considering any of these other cards I listed, go ahead. It's your deck at the end of the day. I'm just telling you that the card has it's pros and cons and that I strongly believe it's cons outweigh the pros, at least in most decks.

The Deck can play floodgates but it depends on which cards you are playing as you can play different combinations.


So figure out which combinations are the best for your deck.

What Unchained does is to end on a link 2 rage with some backrow and handraps. This us really good as decks with the Adventure Token Engine and they actually Rite of aramesir you can use rage to link off with the token making the adventure token engine useless at that point.


This would be a good strategy if it wasn't hindered by Rage's restrictions, but the card requires at least 1 of it's link materials to be specifically an Unchained Soul monster instead of just any Unchained monster so it can't easily be made with any of the Unchained Twins, and it's effect to link with the opponent's monster only works in the opponent's turn instead of also your own turn, further hurting the card's utility.

Then you still have other interruption. The Deck may not seem to be good but it causes trouble for a lot of people as they don't know the ins and outside which is why I can beat top decks.


If the only way for you to be able to beat top decks with Unchained is for people to "not know the ins and outs" of it, that makes Unchained bad.

Plus Greg503 hasn't answered any of my points


You didn't answer my point about how Unchained struggles mostly with getting out Rage and how too many of Unchained's cards are +0 or -1 in card advantage while too little of their cards are actually +1 in card advantage.

and by his replies he hasn't watched the replays either.


Why do you need specifically him to also watch your replays when I already watched them so he wouldn't have to?

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Post #66 by greg503 » Mon May 02, 2022 12:19 am

Christen57 wrote:Ash Blossom being hard once per turn really hurts since, if the opponent brings out Verte Anaconda, you can Ash that, but then they just activate Fusion Destiny from the hand anyway

Sorry Ash Verte what?
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Post #67 by Christen57 » Mon May 02, 2022 1:22 am

greg503 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:Ash Blossom being hard once per turn really hurts since, if the opponent brings out Verte Anaconda, you can Ash that, but then they just activate Fusion Destiny from the hand anyway

Sorry Ash Verte what?


Sorry I forgot you can't Ash a Verte. What I meant to say was, you can hand trap 1 card but oftentimes they'll have another card to extend their play.

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Post #68 by Sound4 » Tue May 03, 2022 6:07 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Why were you telling us to watch your replays then if you aren't willing to go through them with us?



In that case, you may be better off going to Advanced Unrated then, and putting in your duel note "competitive decks only" or something.



I know enough.



That's fine. You just don't need to (and shouldn't) run multiple copies of the same hard-once-per-turn hand trap. Ash Blossom, Ghost Ogre, Ghost Mourner, Nibiru, Artifact Lancea, and Ghost Belle should each be at no more than 1 copy. The hand traps you should be running 3 copies of, if you want to run 3 copies of specific hand traps, are Effect Veiler, D.D. Crow, Skull Meister, Typhoon, Infinite Impermanence, and so on.

Also, hand traps aren't the only way to "stop the opponent from making 4+ negation boards". In some decks, it may be better to run cards that can actually take apart such boards, such as Lava Golem and The Winged Dragon of Ra - Sphere Mode. In other decks, it may be better to run Dark Ruler No More or Forbidden Droplet for dealing with such boards.
Have you considered any of these other options aside from just "hand traps"?



The card is still too restrictive most of the time to be worth running at even 2, let alone 3. Cards like Monster Reborn help you play through hand traps, but are also good even if the opponent isn't playing any hand traps as you can also just activate it to extend your own plays regardless. Called by the Grave helps shield you against hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate but is also good even against monsters with grave effects in general, as you can also set it and use it in the opponent's turn to stop, for example, Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer, which is also a card many people are running. These 2 spells help you against hand traps but are also good outside of situations involving hand traps. Triple Tactics Talent is too specific, it's hard once per turn restriction is too much, and it doesn't do enough to justify such a restriction, or at least doesn't seem to synergize well enough with Unchained.



If your deck is a control deck then 1) You should be playing powerful control floodgates that work alongside your archetype. Eldlich plays Skill Drain, Altergeist plays Secret Village of the Spellcasters, Shaddoll plays El Shaddoll Winda, Sky Striker plays Mystic Mine, Floowandereeze plays both Floowandereeze & Empen and Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds, Krawler plays both Rivalry of Warlords and Gozen Match, and so on. Since Unchained is, in this case, a Fiend-focused deck, it may help to play (or at least side deck) Rivalry of Warlords and Anti-Spell Fragrance.
2) Hand traps shouldn't hurt your deck much if it's meant to be a control deck. Hand traps are meant to hurt, the most, combo decks.



What else is Greg503 missing from those replays I commented on that I didn't already comment on?

If you play only one of a hand trap which is once per turn then it is not worth putting in.


Not true. Some hand traps are better off being ran at 2, and others may be better off being ran at 1. The only hard-once-per-turn hand trap that has always been worth running at 3 whenever possible was Maxx "C" due to how powerful that card was.

Ash is a generic card that that stops things like fusion destiny, branded fusion and red eyes fusion important cards that you need ash for.


Dark Ruler No More, Kaijus, and Santa Claws can stop those cards too. Not just Ash Blossom. Ash Blossom being hard once per turn really hurts since, if the opponent brings out Verte Anaconda, you can Ash that, but then they just activate Fusion Destiny from the hand anyway, so now, instead of your next card being an Ash, it's better off being something that can actually deal with the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer, or Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon, they bring out.

Another major advantage to playing Dark Ruler No More, Kaijus, Forbidden Droplet, or Santa Claws, over Ash Blossom is that, if you rely on Ash Blossom to stop the opponent from resolving the fusion spell, you need to have the Ash Blossom in your hand at the time the fusion spell's activated, but with a Kaiju, even if you don't have it in your hand at that moment, as long as you at least end up drawing it next turn, you can out the fusion monster, whereas if you don't have Ash the moment the fusion spell's activated but instead just draw it in your next turn, it's too late at that point as the fusion has already come out.

On top of that, what if they have both Branded Fusion and Fusion Destiny, or a way to make Verte but also have Fusion Destiny in hand as a backup? If you Ash 1 of those cards they'll just fall back on the other one, which did happen in quite a few of those replays of yours. Lava Golem or Dark Ruler No More would be more suitable in those kinds of situations.

If you want to insist on playing 3 Ash Blossom without considering any of these other cards I listed, go ahead. It's your deck at the end of the day. I'm just telling you that the card has it's pros and cons and that I strongly believe it's cons outweigh the pros, at least in most decks.

The Deck can play floodgates but it depends on which cards you are playing as you can play different combinations.


So figure out which combinations are the best for your deck.

What Unchained does is to end on a link 2 rage with some backrow and handraps. This us really good as decks with the Adventure Token Engine and they actually Rite of aramesir you can use rage to link off with the token making the adventure token engine useless at that point.


This would be a good strategy if it wasn't hindered by Rage's restrictions, but the card requires at least 1 of it's link materials to be specifically an Unchained Soul monster instead of just any Unchained monster so it can't easily be made with any of the Unchained Twins, and it's effect to link with the opponent's monster only works in the opponent's turn instead of also your own turn, further hurting the card's utility.

Then you still have other interruption. The Deck may not seem to be good but it causes trouble for a lot of people as they don't know the ins and outside which is why I can beat top decks.


If the only way for you to be able to beat top decks with Unchained is for people to "not know the ins and outs" of it, that makes Unchained bad.

Plus Greg503 hasn't answered any of my points


You didn't answer my point about how Unchained struggles mostly with getting out Rage and how too many of Unchained's cards are +0 or -1 in card advantage while too little of their cards are actually +1 in card advantage.

and by his replies he hasn't watched the replays either.


Why do you need specifically him to also watch your replays when I already watched them so he wouldn't have to?

Dark ruler no more us really good but in a format we're people are activating cards in SP then it makes Dark ruler worse than it could be. Which is why running handraps can be more beneficial. Plus running 2 or 3 ash depends on the amount of other handraps you are playing.

Plus I never said the only way Unchained can win is that people don't know the ins and outs it just gives you an advantage. Read properly. You are literally doing thee same in the silence is consent thread.

Plus Greg503 I am trying to get an answer from him since his points might be different.

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Post #69 by Sound4 » Tue May 03, 2022 6:14 pm

greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:You won game 1 because he bricked with cards I don't run, game 2 you tried to Nib in End Phase, lmao. Game 3 was just bad siding, Evenly is bad against a deck that goes -. I with my deck, would win, if I played DB

He was running floodgates like any other trap deck. Plus you didn't answer any of my points on why you're deck isn't as good as you think it is. Plus Unchained doesn't really goes -. If you use aruha to destroy an unchained S/T activates it's effect to summon Sarama from deck and then use ura effect to put the S/T and destroy Aruha. Use Aruba effect to summon abom or disaster and go into link 2 rage set some backrow and pass.

The Adventurer package ONLY stops Marrionetter and a Normal Summoned Meluseek from using its battle effect. Every other Altergiest you'll Special Summon, or not need to use it's effect the same turn as Aramesir. With Unchained, if you have the Adventurer package, you need to lead with it because the "Twins" lock you into Fiends. You won't always draw both the important Normal and Adventurer on the same hand either. I would rather have Silq than Unchained Rage because Silq affects more cards, on top of Protocol, Spoofing, and Manifestation just being better backrow than "Raigeki Break." Altergeist is even good versus torrential if you have Silq or Protocol established. Cyberse Eldlich is better than Altergiest, but it's much better than Unchained, that's not an argument. As for floodgates, Altergeist has good enough interaction to not need them, although perhaps I should add Skill Drain for the synergy

Overall the adventure token engine is not that good in decks like Altergeist since it doesn't go well together. Not only does it stop you normal summon it also prevents you from setting a good a mount of your traps. If you do want to play the Adventure Token Engine you need to cut most of your floodgates for your normal Altergeist traps like Cyberse Eldlich and Cyberse Eldlich has cyberse cards to support and extend plays.

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Post #70 by greg503 » Wed May 04, 2022 12:05 am

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:He was running floodgates like any other trap deck. Plus you didn't answer any of my points on why you're deck isn't as good as you think it is. Plus Unchained doesn't really goes -. If you use aruha to destroy an unchained S/T activates it's effect to summon Sarama from deck and then use ura effect to put the S/T and destroy Aruha. Use Aruba effect to summon abom or disaster and go into link 2 rage set some backrow and pass.

The Adventurer package ONLY stops Marrionetter and a Normal Summoned Meluseek from using its battle effect. Every other Altergiest you'll Special Summon, or not need to use it's effect the same turn as Aramesir. With Unchained, if you have the Adventurer package, you need to lead with it because the "Twins" lock you into Fiends. You won't always draw both the important Normal and Adventurer on the same hand either. I would rather have Silq than Unchained Rage because Silq affects more cards, on top of Protocol, Spoofing, and Manifestation just being better backrow than "Raigeki Break." Altergeist is even good versus torrential if you have Silq or Protocol established. Cyberse Eldlich is better than Altergiest, but it's much better than Unchained, that's not an argument. As for floodgates, Altergeist has good enough interaction to not need them, although perhaps I should add Skill Drain for the synergy

Overall the adventure token engine is not that good in decks like Altergeist since it doesn't go well together. Not only does it stop you normal summon it also prevents you from setting a good a mount of your traps. If you do want to play the Adventure Token Engine you need to cut most of your floodgates for your normal Altergeist traps like Cyberse Eldlich and Cyberse Eldlich has cyberse cards to support and extend plays.

OH NO, I have to use 3 S/T zones! Good thing I only have 3 other continuous cards, 2 of which I can bounce at will with Silq. Also, why would I play the other Altergiest traps? They suck.
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Post #71 by Sound4 » Wed May 04, 2022 7:28 pm

greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:The Adventurer package ONLY stops Marrionetter and a Normal Summoned Meluseek from using its battle effect. Every other Altergiest you'll Special Summon, or not need to use it's effect the same turn as Aramesir. With Unchained, if you have the Adventurer package, you need to lead with it because the "Twins" lock you into Fiends. You won't always draw both the important Normal and Adventurer on the same hand either. I would rather have Silq than Unchained Rage because Silq affects more cards, on top of Protocol, Spoofing, and Manifestation just being better backrow than "Raigeki Break." Altergeist is even good versus torrential if you have Silq or Protocol established. Cyberse Eldlich is better than Altergiest, but it's much better than Unchained, that's not an argument. As for floodgates, Altergeist has good enough interaction to not need them, although perhaps I should add Skill Drain for the synergy

Overall the adventure token engine is not that good in decks like Altergeist since it doesn't go well together. Not only does it stop you normal summon it also prevents you from setting a good a mount of your traps. If you do want to play the Adventure Token Engine you need to cut most of your floodgates for your normal Altergeist traps like Cyberse Eldlich and Cyberse Eldlich has cyberse cards to support and extend plays.

OH NO, I have to use 3 S/T zones! Good thing I only have 3 other continuous cards, 2 of which I can bounce at will with Silq. Also, why would I play the other Altergiest traps? They suck.

Skill drain also does not go well with the Adventure Token Engine it is another reason why cyberse Eldlich doesn't run it. It is another reason why the Adventure Token Engine does not go well with Altergeist.

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Post #72 by Lil Oldman » Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Overall the adventure token engine is not that good in decks like Altergeist since it doesn't go well together. Not only does it stop you normal summon it also prevents you from setting a good a mount of your traps. If you do want to play the Adventure Token Engine you need to cut most of your floodgates for your normal Altergeist traps like Cyberse Eldlich and Cyberse Eldlich has cyberse cards to support and extend plays.

OH NO, I have to use 3 S/T zones! Good thing I only have 3 other continuous cards, 2 of which I can bounce at will with Silq. Also, why would I play the other Altergiest traps? They suck.

Skill drain also does not go well with the Adventure Token Engine it is another reason why cyberse Eldlich doesn't run it. It is another reason why the Adventure Token Engine does not go well with Altergeist.

Werent you the same guy who was saying adveturer token isnt that good?
Regardless, not working with token, sure. But it works both with and against a lot other cards.
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Post #73 by greg503 » Wed May 04, 2022 9:28 pm

I'd rather decide between 2 good cards than have mediocre cards like Unchained
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Post #74 by DarwisBellium92 » Thu May 05, 2022 12:30 am

greg503 wrote:I'd rather decide between 2 good cards than have mediocre cards like Unchained

Exactly. 8-)
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Post #75 by Sound4 » Fri May 06, 2022 5:38 pm

Lil Oldman wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:OH NO, I have to use 3 S/T zones! Good thing I only have 3 other continuous cards, 2 of which I can bounce at will with Silq. Also, why would I play the other Altergiest traps? They suck.

Skill drain also does not go well with the Adventure Token Engine it is another reason why cyberse Eldlich doesn't run it. It is another reason why the Adventure Token Engine does not go well with Altergeist.

Werent you the same guy who was saying adveturer token isnt that good?
Regardless, not working with token, sure. But it works both with and against a lot other cards.

When did ever say Adventure Token wasn't good?

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Post #76 by Sound4 » Fri May 06, 2022 5:38 pm

greg503 wrote:I'd rather decide between 2 good cards than have mediocre cards like Unchained

Again Unchained is rogue and even better with a good pilot.

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Post #77 by PENMASTER » Fri May 06, 2022 6:59 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:I'd rather decide between 2 good cards than have mediocre cards like Unchained

Again Unchained is rogue and even better with a good pilot.

its really not it only looked decent because of coder and floodgates
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Post #78 by Renji Asuka » Fri May 06, 2022 7:00 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:I'd rather decide between 2 good cards than have mediocre cards like Unchained

Again Unchained is rogue and even better with a good pilot.

Unchained is trash tier.
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Post #79 by itsmetristan » Fri May 06, 2022 7:26 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Why were you telling us to watch your replays then if you aren't willing to go through them with us?



In that case, you may be better off going to Advanced Unrated then, and putting in your duel note "competitive decks only" or something.



I know enough.



That's fine. You just don't need to (and shouldn't) run multiple copies of the same hard-once-per-turn hand trap. Ash Blossom, Ghost Ogre, Ghost Mourner, Nibiru, Artifact Lancea, and Ghost Belle should each be at no more than 1 copy. The hand traps you should be running 3 copies of, if you want to run 3 copies of specific hand traps, are Effect Veiler, D.D. Crow, Skull Meister, Typhoon, Infinite Impermanence, and so on.

Also, hand traps aren't the only way to "stop the opponent from making 4+ negation boards". In some decks, it may be better to run cards that can actually take apart such boards, such as Lava Golem and The Winged Dragon of Ra - Sphere Mode. In other decks, it may be better to run Dark Ruler No More or Forbidden Droplet for dealing with such boards.
Have you considered any of these other options aside from just "hand traps"?



The card is still too restrictive most of the time to be worth running at even 2, let alone 3. Cards like Monster Reborn help you play through hand traps, but are also good even if the opponent isn't playing any hand traps as you can also just activate it to extend your own plays regardless. Called by the Grave helps shield you against hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate but is also good even against monsters with grave effects in general, as you can also set it and use it in the opponent's turn to stop, for example, Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer, which is also a card many people are running. These 2 spells help you against hand traps but are also good outside of situations involving hand traps. Triple Tactics Talent is too specific, it's hard once per turn restriction is too much, and it doesn't do enough to justify such a restriction, or at least doesn't seem to synergize well enough with Unchained.



If your deck is a control deck then 1) You should be playing powerful control floodgates that work alongside your archetype. Eldlich plays Skill Drain, Altergeist plays Secret Village of the Spellcasters, Shaddoll plays El Shaddoll Winda, Sky Striker plays Mystic Mine, Floowandereeze plays both Floowandereeze & Empen and Barrier Statue of the Stormwinds, Krawler plays both Rivalry of Warlords and Gozen Match, and so on. Since Unchained is, in this case, a Fiend-focused deck, it may help to play (or at least side deck) Rivalry of Warlords and Anti-Spell Fragrance.
2) Hand traps shouldn't hurt your deck much if it's meant to be a control deck. Hand traps are meant to hurt, the most, combo decks.



What else is Greg503 missing from those replays I commented on that I didn't already comment on?

If you play only one of a hand trap which is once per turn then it is not worth putting in.


Not true. Some hand traps are better off being ran at 2, and others may be better off being ran at 1. The only hard-once-per-turn hand trap that has always been worth running at 3 whenever possible was Maxx "C" due to how powerful that card was.

Ash is a generic card that that stops things like fusion destiny, branded fusion and red eyes fusion important cards that you need ash for.


Dark Ruler No More, Kaijus, and Santa Claws can stop those cards too. Not just Ash Blossom. Ash Blossom being hard once per turn really hurts since, if the opponent brings out Verte Anaconda, you can Ash that, but then they just activate Fusion Destiny from the hand anyway, so now, instead of your next card being an Ash, it's better off being something that can actually deal with the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer, or Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon, they bring out.

Another major advantage to playing Dark Ruler No More, Kaijus, Forbidden Droplet, or Santa Claws, over Ash Blossom is that, if you rely on Ash Blossom to stop the opponent from resolving the fusion spell, you need to have the Ash Blossom in your hand at the time the fusion spell's activated, but with a Kaiju, even if you don't have it in your hand at that moment, as long as you at least end up drawing it next turn, you can out the fusion monster, whereas if you don't have Ash the moment the fusion spell's activated but instead just draw it in your next turn, it's too late at that point as the fusion has already come out.

On top of that, what if they have both Branded Fusion and Fusion Destiny, or a way to make Verte but also have Fusion Destiny in hand as a backup? If you Ash 1 of those cards they'll just fall back on the other one, which did happen in quite a few of those replays of yours. Lava Golem or Dark Ruler No More would be more suitable in those kinds of situations.

If you want to insist on playing 3 Ash Blossom without considering any of these other cards I listed, go ahead. It's your deck at the end of the day. I'm just telling you that the card has it's pros and cons and that I strongly believe it's cons outweigh the pros, at least in most decks.

The Deck can play floodgates but it depends on which cards you are playing as you can play different combinations.


So figure out which combinations are the best for your deck.

What Unchained does is to end on a link 2 rage with some backrow and handraps. This us really good as decks with the Adventure Token Engine and they actually Rite of aramesir you can use rage to link off with the token making the adventure token engine useless at that point.


This would be a good strategy if it wasn't hindered by Rage's restrictions, but the card requires at least 1 of it's link materials to be specifically an Unchained Soul monster instead of just any Unchained monster so it can't easily be made with any of the Unchained Twins, and it's effect to link with the opponent's monster only works in the opponent's turn instead of also your own turn, further hurting the card's utility.

Then you still have other interruption. The Deck may not seem to be good but it causes trouble for a lot of people as they don't know the ins and outside which is why I can beat top decks.


If the only way for you to be able to beat top decks with Unchained is for people to "not know the ins and outs" of it, that makes Unchained bad.

Plus Greg503 hasn't answered any of my points


You didn't answer my point about how Unchained struggles mostly with getting out Rage and how too many of Unchained's cards are +0 or -1 in card advantage while too little of their cards are actually +1 in card advantage.

and by his replies he hasn't watched the replays either.


Why do you need specifically him to also watch your replays when I already watched them so he wouldn't have to?

I think you're underestimating the difference between stopping a play in its tracks vs letting the play happen, then trying to out the end result with other cards. In this specific instance, let's compare ash vs a Kaiju against Branded plays.

The opponent normals aluber, grabs Branded Fusion, Activates Branded Fusion, sends Tragedy and Albaz for Lubellion, Lubellion & Tragedy effs activate. Tragedy adds as lib, Lubellion fuses away itself and Albaz to make Mirrorjade. Mirrorjade's effect is activated, banishing Aluber, sending Albion. End phase, Albion sets Red. Now the turn is passed. Let's take a moment to review the situation. At the moment, a Kaiju accomplishes nothing. Furthermore, once they deem it a good time to do so, that Branded player will use Red, probably making a Chimera. Ad lib will then bring back Mirrorjade. Now compare this to what would happen if you had used ash on BraFu. The opponent has resources set up so they can make plays next turn, they have a non-targeting banish and pop available, etc. They wouldn't have ANY of this if instead if a Kaiju, you had Ash. And this is one such example. Even if the opponent theoretically opened Aluber and FD, the result is still the same. Ash does more here than a Kaiju, AND DRNM.
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Post #80 by itsmetristan » Fri May 06, 2022 7:28 pm

Don't get me wrong, there are numerous decks where running Kaijus and such is beneficial, and even better than HT's, but looking at it on a base level, they aren't really better. It's format and deck dependant.
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