Competition on DB Rated

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DarwisBellium92
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Re: Competition on DB Rated

Post #101 by DarwisBellium92 » Sat May 14, 2022 12:40 am

greg503 wrote:Metagame rule number 1: People want to win
Metagame rule number 2: Something that wins is good, and people will attempt to counter it. The best things will thusly be what wins through most used counters to the strategy.
Metagame rule number 3: People will use the best things, the best things are now good, ignore what rule 2 said about things being good.
Unchained is bad QED

No bad, unplayable
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Sound4
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Post #102 by Sound4 » Sat May 14, 2022 8:54 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:Hand Traps don't help push for plays when going first. That is why they are bricks. You said that Unchained was a control deck, so by that logic, you want to go first, which makes hand traps less viable since they don't help you in setting up a board to actually control the opponent's plays.

They are definitely not bricks going first. You clearly don't kniw much about this format. Those handraps are simply extra firms if disruption when you do your combo and end your turn. Plus yes Unchained is a control deck but traps don't do much against the Adventure Token decks so it isn't the most optimal.

It's almost like you didn't read what I stated.

If they don't push for combo, they are bricks.

It's almost like you're being disingenuous.

The reason why the deck isn't represented btw. IS BECAUSE THE DECK IS TRASH.

If you don't run enough going 2nd cards you will lose going 2nd and I already explained things like Dark ruler,Droplet and Evenly aren't that good in the main board. Plus what you said doesn't make much sense a lot of people playing the brave engine are playing hand traps since a lot of it is just is 1 or 2 card combos.
Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of an underrated deck.
Last edited by Sound4 on Sat May 14, 2022 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #103 by Sound4 » Sat May 14, 2022 9:06 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1 in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?



It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.



Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

What do you mean too many of its cards are bricks? The only grckis disaster which you run 1 that is it.


I said too many of it's main deck cards are either bricks or -1 in card advantage, not just that too many of it's cards are bricks. This means many of Unchained's main deck cards are -1 in card advantage, and most of the ones that aren't are too often bricks. Abominable is a -1 because it requires you to lose a card to be special summoned then discard another card just to destroy an opponent's card, Aruha and Rakea are -1 in card advantage and don't do enough to make up for it, Escape of the Unchained is a -1 in card advantage, and so on.

Fir example, your opponent has Apollousa on the fiels. Your normal summon a monster abs activate its effect. Opponent negated with Apollousa you can chain ogre to destroy and your effect resolves. Handraps can be ysed on your opponent's turn it just has to be used smartly.


And I explained why they're harder to use "smartly" than board-breakers.

As itsmetristan says it is format reliant. Board breaking stuff was really good in the format which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were dominanting. Handraps aren't necessarily effective but if you play so many of them they become effective.


If they either synergize with your deck, or aren't hard once per turn making it safe to draw multiple copies of them, then yes, they should be effective and worth maxing out on. However, there are 2 things that hurt hand traps' "effectiveness" in a deck like Unchained. First, hand traps tend to synergize best in decks that either can easily search/recycle them, or focus on 1-card plays, allowing the rest of the deck to be filled with hand traps. Examples of the first category are Blue-Eyes which can search out Effect Veiler due to it being a level 1 light tuner, as well as Lyrilusc which can search out D.D. Crow due to it being a level 1 winged beast. Examples of the second category would be decks like Invoked, Dogmatika, and Salamangreat. These decks tend to use engines small enough to be able to fit plenty of hand traps.

Neither of these seem to be the case with Unchained, and the archetype (at least from what I've seen in your replays) requires a lot of space for starters and engine requirements as it requires combinations of specific Unchained cards in hand to start any plays, so there doesn't appear to be much room in the deck you can safely dedicate to hand traps.

This brings me to my second reason why the effectiveness of hand traps is hurt in Unchained: Unchained struggles to capitalize on boards it uses hand traps to weaken. If you're going second, the opponent tries to combo off, and you play, for example, an Ash Blossom against one of their cards, even if it turned out to be the correct card to Ash and causes them to have to end their turn, if you can't then either FTK/OTK them, or set up a formidable board of your own, when your turn comes, there's nothing stopping them from simply continuing their combo where they left off when their next turn comes, rendering your efforts to hand trap them futile. If you hand trap the opponent 2/3 times, you have to follow it up with either an OTK or a strong enough board of your own (neither of which Unchained can easily or consistently pull off) to keep them from just picking up where they left off.

This reveals, yet again, another major advantage board-breakers have over hand traps: If the opponent starts a combo intending to go through half their extra deck or something by the time the combo is done, if you use a hand trap to slow down the combo, you then have to worry about doing something in your turn to ensure they can't continue where they left off and vomit out their extra deck in their next turn, but with a board-breaker, you can let them vomit their resources onto the board, then you can break that board, and because they've already burned through much of their resources, it'll be harder for them to combo again.

Cars like Dark ruler no more, Forbidden Droplet and Evenly match aren't bad but it isn't like the format where you could just activate one of those cards and win the game. Like I said earlier a lot of people are activating things in SP making Dark ruler mit as good and droplet if your opponent has a massive board you have to sacrifice most of your zarss except probably one and then a lot if people have been setting up snow in GY so set your monster face down.


You're right about Forbidden Droplet and Evenly Matched. I used to run Evenly Matched in my Pile deck until I realized it wasn't doing enough to help so I took it out.

Read what I said to greg503. Plus say which cards are "bricks since you aren't. Plus drawing 2 of the same hand trap is not often and your point about how you should not max out on them is because they are once or tirn you can say the same about any other once or turn card. For example, Aluber is a once per turn effect you have 3 in your deck and you draw two and you can only use the effect once oer turn. Does that make aluber bad and not max out on? No. It is a card that you should play 3 of as you can search you branded fusion or your branded spells that you need.

Plus most of unchained combos are 2 card combos and has plenty of ways to search its cards it needs like through abomination prison etc. Plys the standard Unchained cards is only 21 carss which epis not much.3 rakea 3sarama 3 Aruba 2 abom 1 disaster 3 abomination prison 6 of the best unchained traps. Plus I the only deck that goes through half their extra deck is like infernobles. I have mot seen any other deck go through most of their resources turn one.

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Post #104 by Sound4 » Sat May 14, 2022 9:07 pm

greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:"It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. " Non argument, you can say that about any deck and it'd be true. That doesn't exactly show us or convince us that Unchained is good, fun fact, if it was, it'd be topping Konami events here and there. It doesn't.

Again the Deck doesn't have much representation.

And why doesn't it have much representation? That's right, because it's bad and doesn't win

Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of underrated decks?

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Post #105 by Renji Asuka » Sat May 14, 2022 9:15 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:They are definitely not bricks going first. You clearly don't kniw much about this format. Those handraps are simply extra firms if disruption when you do your combo and end your turn. Plus yes Unchained is a control deck but traps don't do much against the Adventure Token decks so it isn't the most optimal.

It's almost like you didn't read what I stated.

If they don't push for combo, they are bricks.

It's almost like you're being disingenuous.

The reason why the deck isn't represented btw. IS BECAUSE THE DECK IS TRASH.

If you don't run enough going 2nd cards you will lose going 2nd and I already explained things like Dark ruler,Droplet and Evenly aren't that good in the main board. Plus what you said doesn't make much sense a lot of people playing the brave engine are playing hand traps since a lot of it is just is 1 or 2 card combos.


Do hand traps push for plays?

Yes or no?

No obviously, because of that they are bricks going first.

If you open up with all hand traps playing a control deck, your deck won't do a very good job at controlling the game.

Unchained sucks in the grind game, it can't generate advantage during the grind game, it can't even interrupt the opponent very well.

There is 3 kinds of decks in yugioh.

Stun, Control, and Aggro

Stun decks shut down the game entirely for the opponent. The epitome of "You can't play yugioh."

Control decks control the flow of the game. Control decks NEED to be able to generate advantage during a slower game state, especially against other control decks.

Aggro decks will push right through for the kill.

As for Combo Decks, they can fall in any of the above categories (very rarely stun). For example, I can use a Brave Engine, DPE Engine, Artifact Engine that would fall under control. Or I can use these engines for offensive power to fall under Aggro. Even Dinos can be seen as a Combo Aggro deck or a Combo Control Deck (pending on end board).

I can even use combo oriented decks to be a mix of control and aggro, which is typically midrange.

It's sad to see you don't understand these fundamentals for yugioh.
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Post #106 by Renji Asuka » Sat May 14, 2022 9:21 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Again the Deck doesn't have much representation.

And why doesn't it have much representation? That's right, because it's bad and doesn't win

Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of underrated decks?

I can't believe you just compared VW (which was META when VFD was legal) to Unchained (that never appeared in the META scene) LMAO
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Post #107 by greg503 » Sat May 14, 2022 10:10 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Again the Deck doesn't have much representation.

And why doesn't it have much representation? That's right, because it's bad and doesn't win

Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of underrated decks?

VW has been good and meta, Unchained NEVER has.
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Post #108 by Lil Oldman » Sat May 14, 2022 10:47 pm

bruh I haven't seen Dragon Ruler top in a while, it must be a shitty deck
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Post #109 by Christen57 » Sat May 14, 2022 11:56 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:What do you mean too many of its cards are bricks? The only grckis disaster which you run 1 that is it.


I said too many of it's main deck cards are either bricks or -1 in card advantage, not just that too many of it's cards are bricks. This means many of Unchained's main deck cards are -1 in card advantage, and most of the ones that aren't are too often bricks. Abominable is a -1 because it requires you to lose a card to be special summoned then discard another card just to destroy an opponent's card, Aruha and Rakea are -1 in card advantage and don't do enough to make up for it, Escape of the Unchained is a -1 in card advantage, and so on.

Fir example, your opponent has Apollousa on the fiels. Your normal summon a monster abs activate its effect. Opponent negated with Apollousa you can chain ogre to destroy and your effect resolves. Handraps can be ysed on your opponent's turn it just has to be used smartly.


And I explained why they're harder to use "smartly" than board-breakers.

As itsmetristan says it is format reliant. Board breaking stuff was really good in the format which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were dominanting. Handraps aren't necessarily effective but if you play so many of them they become effective.


If they either synergize with your deck, or aren't hard once per turn making it safe to draw multiple copies of them, then yes, they should be effective and worth maxing out on. However, there are 2 things that hurt hand traps' "effectiveness" in a deck like Unchained. First, hand traps tend to synergize best in decks that either can easily search/recycle them, or focus on 1-card plays, allowing the rest of the deck to be filled with hand traps. Examples of the first category are Blue-Eyes which can search out Effect Veiler due to it being a level 1 light tuner, as well as Lyrilusc which can search out D.D. Crow due to it being a level 1 winged beast. Examples of the second category would be decks like Invoked, Dogmatika, and Salamangreat. These decks tend to use engines small enough to be able to fit plenty of hand traps.

Neither of these seem to be the case with Unchained, and the archetype (at least from what I've seen in your replays) requires a lot of space for starters and engine requirements as it requires combinations of specific Unchained cards in hand to start any plays, so there doesn't appear to be much room in the deck you can safely dedicate to hand traps.

This brings me to my second reason why the effectiveness of hand traps is hurt in Unchained: Unchained struggles to capitalize on boards it uses hand traps to weaken. If you're going second, the opponent tries to combo off, and you play, for example, an Ash Blossom against one of their cards, even if it turned out to be the correct card to Ash and causes them to have to end their turn, if you can't then either FTK/OTK them, or set up a formidable board of your own, when your turn comes, there's nothing stopping them from simply continuing their combo where they left off when their next turn comes, rendering your efforts to hand trap them futile. If you hand trap the opponent 2/3 times, you have to follow it up with either an OTK or a strong enough board of your own (neither of which Unchained can easily or consistently pull off) to keep them from just picking up where they left off.

This reveals, yet again, another major advantage board-breakers have over hand traps: If the opponent starts a combo intending to go through half their extra deck or something by the time the combo is done, if you use a hand trap to slow down the combo, you then have to worry about doing something in your turn to ensure they can't continue where they left off and vomit out their extra deck in their next turn, but with a board-breaker, you can let them vomit their resources onto the board, then you can break that board, and because they've already burned through much of their resources, it'll be harder for them to combo again.

Cars like Dark ruler no more, Forbidden Droplet and Evenly match aren't bad but it isn't like the format where you could just activate one of those cards and win the game. Like I said earlier a lot of people are activating things in SP making Dark ruler mit as good and droplet if your opponent has a massive board you have to sacrifice most of your zarss except probably one and then a lot if people have been setting up snow in GY so set your monster face down.


You're right about Forbidden Droplet and Evenly Matched. I used to run Evenly Matched in my Pile deck until I realized it wasn't doing enough to help so I took it out.

Read what I said to greg503. Plus say which cards are "bricks since you aren't.


Didn't you already point out Unchained's bricks? I don't think I need to repeat Unchained's bricks.

Plus drawing 2 of the same hand trap is not often and your point about how you should not max out on them is because they are once or tirn you can say the same about any other once or turn card. For example, Aluber is a once per turn effect you have 3 in your deck and you draw two and you can only use the effect once oer turn. Does that make aluber bad and not max out on? No. It is a card that you should play 3 of as you can search you branded fusion or your branded spells that you need.


Aluber the Jester of Despia is one of Branded Despia's starters that that deck uses to kick off it's combos. Of course you max out on those. Ash Blossom doesn't help you start or extend your combos the way Aluber does, making Ash Blossom harder to justify maxing out on.

Here's a short but nice article explaining these concepts in a bit more detail: https://atgn.com.au/just-chuck-it-in-an-in-depth-guide-to-the-benefits-of-archetype-mixing/

Plus most of unchained combos are 2 card combos and has plenty of ways to search its cards it needs like through abomination prison etc.


All the more reason running these hand traps hurts Unchained, because now you have to worry about drawing too many hand traps and not enough of the appropriate cards required to begin your combo(s). This issue doesn't really exist in decks that focus more on 1-card combos than 2-card combos, because with 1-card-combo decks, you can draw any 1 of your starters in your opening hand and have the rest of the cards in that opening hand be hand traps.

Plys the standard Unchained cards is only 21 carss which epis not much.3 rakea 3sarama 3 Aruba 2 abom 1 disaster 3 abomination prison 6 of the best unchained traps. Plus I the only deck that goes through half their extra deck is like infernobles. I have mot seen any other deck go through most of their resources turn one.


You mind showing us a screenshot of your current decklist?

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Post #110 by Sound4 » Wed May 18, 2022 3:53 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:And why doesn't it have much representation? That's right, because it's bad and doesn't win

Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of underrated decks?

I can't believe you just compared VW (which was META when VFD was legal) to Unchained (that never appeared in the META scene) LMAO

You missed the point I am saying that just because a deck does not have good representation doesn't mean it is bad.

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Post #111 by Sound4 » Wed May 18, 2022 3:54 pm

greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:And why doesn't it have much representation? That's right, because it's bad and doesn't win

Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of underrated decks?

VW has been good and meta, Unchained NEVER has.

You missed the point. Just because a deck doesn't have good representation doesn't mean it is bad.

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Post #112 by greg503 » Wed May 18, 2022 3:59 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of underrated decks?

VW has been good and meta, Unchained NEVER has.

You missed the point. Just because a deck doesn't have good representation doesn't mean it is bad.

Your deck NEVER had good representation, it was ALWAYS bad
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Post #113 by Sound4 » Wed May 18, 2022 4:03 pm

greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:VW has been good and meta, Unchained NEVER has.

You missed the point. Just because a deck doesn't have good representation doesn't mean it is bad.

Your deck NEVER had good representation, it was ALWAYS bad

Read what I said. You clearly didn't.

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Post #114 by Sound4 » Wed May 18, 2022 4:04 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
I said too many of it's main deck cards are either bricks or -1 in card advantage, not just that too many of it's cards are bricks. This means many of Unchained's main deck cards are -1 in card advantage, and most of the ones that aren't are too often bricks. Abominable is a -1 because it requires you to lose a card to be special summoned then discard another card just to destroy an opponent's card, Aruha and Rakea are -1 in card advantage and don't do enough to make up for it, Escape of the Unchained is a -1 in card advantage, and so on.



And I explained why they're harder to use "smartly" than board-breakers.



If they either synergize with your deck, or aren't hard once per turn making it safe to draw multiple copies of them, then yes, they should be effective and worth maxing out on. However, there are 2 things that hurt hand traps' "effectiveness" in a deck like Unchained. First, hand traps tend to synergize best in decks that either can easily search/recycle them, or focus on 1-card plays, allowing the rest of the deck to be filled with hand traps. Examples of the first category are Blue-Eyes which can search out Effect Veiler due to it being a level 1 light tuner, as well as Lyrilusc which can search out D.D. Crow due to it being a level 1 winged beast. Examples of the second category would be decks like Invoked, Dogmatika, and Salamangreat. These decks tend to use engines small enough to be able to fit plenty of hand traps.

Neither of these seem to be the case with Unchained, and the archetype (at least from what I've seen in your replays) requires a lot of space for starters and engine requirements as it requires combinations of specific Unchained cards in hand to start any plays, so there doesn't appear to be much room in the deck you can safely dedicate to hand traps.

This brings me to my second reason why the effectiveness of hand traps is hurt in Unchained: Unchained struggles to capitalize on boards it uses hand traps to weaken. If you're going second, the opponent tries to combo off, and you play, for example, an Ash Blossom against one of their cards, even if it turned out to be the correct card to Ash and causes them to have to end their turn, if you can't then either FTK/OTK them, or set up a formidable board of your own, when your turn comes, there's nothing stopping them from simply continuing their combo where they left off when their next turn comes, rendering your efforts to hand trap them futile. If you hand trap the opponent 2/3 times, you have to follow it up with either an OTK or a strong enough board of your own (neither of which Unchained can easily or consistently pull off) to keep them from just picking up where they left off.

This reveals, yet again, another major advantage board-breakers have over hand traps: If the opponent starts a combo intending to go through half their extra deck or something by the time the combo is done, if you use a hand trap to slow down the combo, you then have to worry about doing something in your turn to ensure they can't continue where they left off and vomit out their extra deck in their next turn, but with a board-breaker, you can let them vomit their resources onto the board, then you can break that board, and because they've already burned through much of their resources, it'll be harder for them to combo again.



You're right about Forbidden Droplet and Evenly Matched. I used to run Evenly Matched in my Pile deck until I realized it wasn't doing enough to help so I took it out.

Read what I said to greg503. Plus say which cards are "bricks since you aren't.


Didn't you already point out Unchained's bricks? I don't think I need to repeat Unchained's bricks.

Plus drawing 2 of the same hand trap is not often and your point about how you should not max out on them is because they are once or tirn you can say the same about any other once or turn card. For example, Aluber is a once per turn effect you have 3 in your deck and you draw two and you can only use the effect once oer turn. Does that make aluber bad and not max out on? No. It is a card that you should play 3 of as you can search you branded fusion or your branded spells that you need.


Aluber the Jester of Despia is one of Branded Despia's starters that that deck uses to kick off it's combos. Of course you max out on those. Ash Blossom doesn't help you start or extend your combos the way Aluber does, making Ash Blossom harder to justify maxing out on.

Here's a short but nice article explaining these concepts in a bit more detail: https://atgn.com.au/just-chuck-it-in-an-in-depth-guide-to-the-benefits-of-archetype-mixing/

Plus most of unchained combos are 2 card combos and has plenty of ways to search its cards it needs like through abomination prison etc.


All the more reason running these hand traps hurts Unchained, because now you have to worry about drawing too many hand traps and not enough of the appropriate cards required to begin your combo(s). This issue doesn't really exist in decks that focus more on 1-card combos than 2-card combos, because with 1-card-combo decks, you can draw any 1 of your starters in your opening hand and have the rest of the cards in that opening hand be hand traps.

Plys the standard Unchained cards is only 21 carss which epis not much.3 rakea 3sarama 3 Aruba 2 abom 1 disaster 3 abomination prison 6 of the best unchained traps. Plus I the only deck that goes through half their extra deck is like infernobles. I have mot seen any other deck go through most of their resources turn one.


You mind showing us a screenshot of your current decklist?

When did I say Unchained bricks? If you are referring to the "better Shuffling System" thread thatk wasn't Unchained being an inconsistent deck but just the shuffling system in DB being bad. Read properly.

Read what I said to Renji Asuka. If you aren't playing enough going 2nd cards then you are going to lose going 2nd. I already explained why the board breaking cards aren't as good as you think.

Plus this is my deck list.
https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=6962272

Renji Asuka
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Post #115 by Renji Asuka » Wed May 18, 2022 4:08 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Is VW bad because it doesn't have much representation? No. Haven't you heard of underrated decks?

I can't believe you just compared VW (which was META when VFD was legal) to Unchained (that never appeared in the META scene) LMAO

You missed the point I am saying that just because a deck does not have good representation doesn't mean it is bad.

No, you missed the point. You compared a META deck to Unchained as an argument to why Unchained is good because you felt like Virtual World is underrepresented.

Unchained isn't good which is why it doesn't have a lot of people playing the deck. If it was good, it'd had topped a regionals at the very least, it hasn't.
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Post #116 by greg503 » Wed May 18, 2022 4:33 pm

Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:You missed the point. Just because a deck doesn't have good representation doesn't mean it is bad.

Your deck NEVER had good representation, it was ALWAYS bad

Read what I said. You clearly didn't.

No u
Buy Floowandereeze

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Post #117 by Christen57 » Wed May 18, 2022 5:07 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Read what I said to greg503. Plus say which cards are "bricks since you aren't.


Didn't you already point out Unchained's bricks? I don't think I need to repeat Unchained's bricks.

Plus drawing 2 of the same hand trap is not often and your point about how you should not max out on them is because they are once or tirn you can say the same about any other once or turn card. For example, Aluber is a once per turn effect you have 3 in your deck and you draw two and you can only use the effect once oer turn. Does that make aluber bad and not max out on? No. It is a card that you should play 3 of as you can search you branded fusion or your branded spells that you need.


Aluber the Jester of Despia is one of Branded Despia's starters that that deck uses to kick off it's combos. Of course you max out on those. Ash Blossom doesn't help you start or extend your combos the way Aluber does, making Ash Blossom harder to justify maxing out on.

Here's a short but nice article explaining these concepts in a bit more detail: https://atgn.com.au/just-chuck-it-in-an-in-depth-guide-to-the-benefits-of-archetype-mixing/

Plus most of unchained combos are 2 card combos and has plenty of ways to search its cards it needs like through abomination prison etc.


All the more reason running these hand traps hurts Unchained, because now you have to worry about drawing too many hand traps and not enough of the appropriate cards required to begin your combo(s). This issue doesn't really exist in decks that focus more on 1-card combos than 2-card combos, because with 1-card-combo decks, you can draw any 1 of your starters in your opening hand and have the rest of the cards in that opening hand be hand traps.

Plys the standard Unchained cards is only 21 carss which epis not much.3 rakea 3sarama 3 Aruba 2 abom 1 disaster 3 abomination prison 6 of the best unchained traps. Plus I the only deck that goes through half their extra deck is like infernobles. I have mot seen any other deck go through most of their resources turn one.


You mind showing us a screenshot of your current decklist?

When did I say Unchained bricks? If you are referring to the "better Shuffling System" thread thatk wasn't Unchained being an inconsistent deck but just the shuffling system in DB being bad. Read properly.

Read what I said to Renji Asuka. If you aren't playing enough going 2nd cards then you are going to lose going 2nd. I already explained why the board breaking cards aren't as good as you think.

Plus this is my deck list.
https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=6962272


You didn't say Unchained bricks. You said Unchained has bricks such as Unchained Soul of Disaster, the card you run, while I talked about the rest of Unchained's -1s in card advantage.

https://imgur.com/nwmkYAE
Replace 2 of the Ghost Belles (and probably 1 of the Ash Blossoms as well) with D.D. Crow, and replace (another) 1 of the Ash Blossoms with either a Ghost Ogre or Ghost Mourner.

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Post #118 by Sound4 » Thu May 19, 2022 6:53 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:I can't believe you just compared VW (which was META when VFD was legal) to Unchained (that never appeared in the META scene) LMAO

You missed the point I am saying that just because a deck does not have good representation doesn't mean it is bad.

No, you missed the point. You compared a META deck to Unchained as an argument to why Unchained is good because you felt like Virtual World is underrepresented.

Unchained isn't good which is why it doesn't have a lot of people playing the deck. If it was good, it'd had topped a regionals at the very least, it hasn't.

The point was that just because a deck doesn't have good representation doesn't mean it is bad. Plus VW isn't meta because Desires was limited but now it is at 2 so it might become a tier 1 deck soon. Plus here is a person topping with unchained at a tournament.
https://youtu.be/TFytbHzbC8I

Sound4
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Post #119 by Sound4 » Thu May 19, 2022 6:56 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Didn't you already point out Unchained's bricks? I don't think I need to repeat Unchained's bricks.



Aluber the Jester of Despia is one of Branded Despia's starters that that deck uses to kick off it's combos. Of course you max out on those. Ash Blossom doesn't help you start or extend your combos the way Aluber does, making Ash Blossom harder to justify maxing out on.

Here's a short but nice article explaining these concepts in a bit more detail: https://atgn.com.au/just-chuck-it-in-an-in-depth-guide-to-the-benefits-of-archetype-mixing/



All the more reason running these hand traps hurts Unchained, because now you have to worry about drawing too many hand traps and not enough of the appropriate cards required to begin your combo(s). This issue doesn't really exist in decks that focus more on 1-card combos than 2-card combos, because with 1-card-combo decks, you can draw any 1 of your starters in your opening hand and have the rest of the cards in that opening hand be hand traps.



You mind showing us a screenshot of your current decklist?

When did I say Unchained bricks? If you are referring to the "better Shuffling System" thread thatk wasn't Unchained being an inconsistent deck but just the shuffling system in DB being bad. Read properly.

Read what I said to Renji Asuka. If you aren't playing enough going 2nd cards then you are going to lose going 2nd. I already explained why the board breaking cards aren't as good as you think.

Plus this is my deck list.
https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=6962272


You didn't say Unchained bricks. You said Unchained has bricks such as Unchained Soul of Disaster, the card you run, while I talked about the rest of Unchained's -1s in card advantage.

https://imgur.com/nwmkYAE
Replace 2 of the Ghost Belles (and probably 1 of the Ash Blossoms as well) with D.D. Crow, and replace (another) 1 of the Ash Blossoms with either a Ghost Ogre or Ghost Mourner.

You basically ignored what I said. You said that a good amount Unchained cards are bricks. I was asking fir you which cards are bricks and you failed to do so.

Plus why would I replace the two best handraps of this formats with not good ones. Ogre is terrible currently and dd crow is too situational.

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Post #120 by Sound4 » Thu May 19, 2022 6:56 pm

greg503 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:Your deck NEVER had good representation, it was ALWAYS bad

Read what I said. You clearly didn't.

No u

You missed the point.


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