Yu-Gi-Oh! » Forbidden/Limited List Discussions

Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Ruler
Mystic mine

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":2a5qc7fo]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Angel
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)[/quote:2a5qc7fo]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.

[quote="Renji Asuka":3l1q0oqv]That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.[/quote:3l1q0oqv]
After getting sacked by it in casual matches, I can say that Dragoon is a roadblock that rouge decks HAVE to play, I can see why the OCG banned it.

[quote="Renji Asuka":30vktn0j][quote="AnimeMasterDub":30vktn0j]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Angel
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)[/quote:30vktn0j]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:30vktn0j]
unless you have a way for odd-eyes pendulums to take out dragoon it still in that needs to be banned zone to me

[quote="Renji Asuka":2f3ddalc][quote="AnimeMasterDub":2f3ddalc]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Angel
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)[/quote:2f3ddalc]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:2f3ddalc]

I always prefer to hit problems instead of enablers. I would rather hit the problem itself (Dragoon) than hit the cards that make it a bit easier to summon. If we hit Verte, players can still activate Red-Eyes Fusion, and then that spell becomes a sacky card or something.

Vanity's Fiend and Ruler should also go, whether or not outs exist. They disallow healthy interaction.

[quote="Christen57":uzfvy3aq][quote="Renji Asuka":uzfvy3aq][quote="AnimeMasterDub":uzfvy3aq]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Angel
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)[/quote:uzfvy3aq]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:uzfvy3aq]

I always prefer to hit problems instead of enablers. I would rather hit the problem itself (Dragoon) than hit the cards that make it a bit easier to summon. If we hit Verte, players can still activate Red-Eyes Fusion, and then that spell becomes a sacky card or something.

Vanity's Fiend and Ruler should also go, whether or not outs exist. They disallow healthy interaction.[/quote:uzfvy3aq]

I rather hit enablers than "problem". Mystic Mine is a perfect example, the engine that the deck ran was a problem. 3 Lilith, 3 Trap Trick, 3 Metaverse for a grand total of 12 Mystic Mines in your deck, Mystic Mine wasn't the problem, how it was played was the problem. If everyone is able to spam Dragoon, we have to look at how its being spammed in every deck, which is why Verte Anaconda is a problem in this instance.

Not only that, but keeping the enablers, just allow the same situation to happen that people would would complain about. Say Dragoon does get banned, we already know Konami is fine with making cards are strong as Dragoon, so what makes you think they won't make a card like it that is spammable by the same enablers?

Even if people will spam Red-Eyes Fusion, you forget, they can't summon anything else, so they can't make a multi negate board. And that is implying they're still willing to spam it.

renji is correct

If you want another example as to why you hit enablers look at birthing pod in modern mtg



For just 1 creature, 1 mana of any color and 2 life you could pull any creature 1 cmc greater than your sacrifice. This allowed decks to splash all sorts of creature cards. Birthing Pod, like Verte, is only as good as the pool it can pull from and can give decks access to creatures they would otherwise wouldn't consider playing. There are differences, pod enabled way more plays and combos and was the key card to the decks that ran it.

[quote="Renji Asuka":282mhdvg][quote="Christen57":282mhdvg][quote="Renji Asuka":282mhdvg]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:282mhdvg]

I always prefer to hit problems instead of enablers. I would rather hit the problem itself (Dragoon) than hit the cards that make it a bit easier to summon. If we hit Verte, players can still activate Red-Eyes Fusion, and then that spell becomes a sacky card or something.

Vanity's Fiend and Ruler should also go, whether or not outs exist. They disallow healthy interaction.[/quote:282mhdvg]

I rather hit enablers than "problem". Mystic Mine is a perfect example, the engine that the deck ran was a problem. 3 Lilith, 3 Trap Trick, 3 Metaverse for a grand total of 12 Mystic Mines in your deck, Mystic Mine wasn't the problem, how it was played was the problem. If everyone is able to spam Dragoon, we have to look at how its being spammed in every deck, which is why Verte Anaconda is a problem in this instance.

Not only that, but keeping the enablers, just allow the same situation to happen that people would would complain about. Say Dragoon does get banned, we already know Konami is fine with making cards are strong as Dragoon, so what makes you think they won't make a card like it that is spammable by the same enablers?

Even if people will spam Red-Eyes Fusion, you forget, they can't summon anything else, so they can't make a multi negate board. And that is implying they're still willing to spam it.[/quote:282mhdvg]

Mystic Mine is a problem because it's unhealthy for the game and the reason things like Metaverse and Terraforming got hit.

I don't think Konami is "fine with making cards as strong as Dragoon". What I do think is that even Konami makes mistakes, and they know this, which is why they try to correct those mistakes through banlists/erratas. Konami probably didn't know cards like Pot of Greed would be so powerful when they first made those cards. Konami can't always predict exactly how strong/abusable every card they print will be. When Konami realized Pot of Greed was too strong, they corrected their mistake by hitting the card and not taking it off the banlist since. I don't think Konami would have been "fine" with super powerful cards like Pot of Greed existing if they knew exactly how strong and abusable it would be. If they really were fine with super power cards existing, I doubt we would have a banlist.

[quote="Christen57":2mse09fj][quote="Renji Asuka":2mse09fj][quote="Christen57":2mse09fj]

I always prefer to hit problems instead of enablers. I would rather hit the problem itself (Dragoon) than hit the cards that make it a bit easier to summon. If we hit Verte, players can still activate Red-Eyes Fusion, and then that spell becomes a sacky card or something.

Vanity's Fiend and Ruler should also go, whether or not outs exist. They disallow healthy interaction.[/quote:2mse09fj]

I rather hit enablers than "problem". Mystic Mine is a perfect example, the engine that the deck ran was a problem. 3 Lilith, 3 Trap Trick, 3 Metaverse for a grand total of 12 Mystic Mines in your deck, Mystic Mine wasn't the problem, how it was played was the problem. If everyone is able to spam Dragoon, we have to look at how its being spammed in every deck, which is why Verte Anaconda is a problem in this instance.

Not only that, but keeping the enablers, just allow the same situation to happen that people would would complain about. Say Dragoon does get banned, we already know Konami is fine with making cards are strong as Dragoon, so what makes you think they won't make a card like it that is spammable by the same enablers?

Even if people will spam Red-Eyes Fusion, you forget, they can't summon anything else, so they can't make a multi negate board. And that is implying they're still willing to spam it.[/quote:2mse09fj]

Mystic Mine is a problem because it's unhealthy for the game and the reason things like Metaverse and Terraforming got hit.

I don't think Konami is "fine with making cards as strong as Dragoon". What I do think is that even Konami makes mistakes, and they know this, which is why they try to correct those mistakes through banlists/erratas. Konami probably didn't know cards like Pot of Greed would be so powerful when they first made those cards. Konami can't always predict exactly how strong/abusable every card they print will be. When Konami realized Pot of Greed was too strong, they corrected their mistake by hitting the card and not taking it off the banlist since. I don't think Konami would have been "fine" with super powerful cards like Pot of Greed existing if they knew exactly how strong and abusable it would be. If they really were fine with super power cards existing, I doubt we would have a banlist.[/quote:2mse09fj]

You missed the point with the Mystic Mine example. That engine that I told you, would still exist even IF Mystic Mine was banned, and FYI, there is a few Flood Gate Field Spells that do exist, and if Konami was willing to make cards like Mystic Mine, do you really think the problem would be gone if it was made? If Konami made Mystic Mine, it's only a matter of time before Konami creates a more powerful version, even if years later. We would still have that engine which would create the same problem. Its all about addressing the issue so the issue can't come up again. That is why enablers are hit.

Because of this, Verte Anaconda IS the lynchpin that allows Dragoons to be spammed. You ban that, and players are more likely not to play Dragoons outside of Red-Eyes/Dark Magician, in which case, the card is quite okay.

[quote="Renji Asuka":x7q8juum][quote="Christen57":x7q8juum][quote="Renji Asuka":x7q8juum]

I rather hit enablers than "problem". Mystic Mine is a perfect example, the engine that the deck ran was a problem. 3 Lilith, 3 Trap Trick, 3 Metaverse for a grand total of 12 Mystic Mines in your deck, Mystic Mine wasn't the problem, how it was played was the problem. If everyone is able to spam Dragoon, we have to look at how its being spammed in every deck, which is why Verte Anaconda is a problem in this instance.

Not only that, but keeping the enablers, just allow the same situation to happen that people would would complain about. Say Dragoon does get banned, we already know Konami is fine with making cards are strong as Dragoon, so what makes you think they won't make a card like it that is spammable by the same enablers?

Even if people will spam Red-Eyes Fusion, you forget, they can't summon anything else, so they can't make a multi negate board. And that is implying they're still willing to spam it.[/quote:x7q8juum]

Mystic Mine is a problem because it's unhealthy for the game and the reason things like Metaverse and Terraforming got hit.

I don't think Konami is "fine with making cards as strong as Dragoon". What I do think is that even Konami makes mistakes, and they know this, which is why they try to correct those mistakes through banlists/erratas. Konami probably didn't know cards like Pot of Greed would be so powerful when they first made those cards. Konami can't always predict exactly how strong/abusable every card they print will be. When Konami realized Pot of Greed was too strong, they corrected their mistake by hitting the card and not taking it off the banlist since. I don't think Konami would have been "fine" with super powerful cards like Pot of Greed existing if they knew exactly how strong and abusable it would be. If they really were fine with super power cards existing, I doubt we would have a banlist.[/quote:x7q8juum]

You missed the point with the Mystic Mine example. That engine that I told you, would still exist even IF Mystic Mine was banned, and FYI, there is a few Flood Gate Field Spells that do exist, and if Konami was willing to make cards like Mystic Mine, do you really think the problem would be gone if it was made? If Konami made Mystic Mine, it's only a matter of time before Konami creates a more powerful version, even if years later. We would still have that engine which would create the same problem. Its all about addressing the issue so the issue can't come up again. That is why enablers are hit.

Because of this, Verte Anaconda IS the lynchpin that allows Dragoons to be spammed. You ban that, and players are more likely not to play Dragoons outside of Red-Eyes/Dark Magician, in which case, the card is quite okay.[/quote:x7q8juum]

Yes, that Lilith Trap Trick Metaverse engine would still exist even with Mystic Mine banned, but the difference is that that engine wouldn't be as degenerate or unhealthy for the game. The only other closest floodgate field spells to Mystic Mine would be Array of Revealing Light, which only stops monsters with specific types from attacking and only the turn they're summoned, The Seal of Orichalcos which only stops monsters from attacking your weakest monster, and the Ghostrick field spells which only stop monsters from attacking face-down monsters, and Clear World which only stops players who control 2 or more dark monsters from attacking.

No other field spell completely stops all kinds of monsters from both attacking and activating effects in all locations, no other field spell would be or has ever been as degenerate with the Lilith Trap Trick Metaverse engine as Mystic Mine, and no other field spell did as well on a competitive level with the Lilith Trap Trick Metaverse engine as Mystic Mine did.

[quote="Christen57":1rphk7t7]

Yes, that Lilith Trap Trick Metaverse engine would still exist even with Mystic Mine banned, but the difference is that that engine wouldn't be as degenerate or unhealthy for the game.[/quote:1rphk7t7]

You can't know that. And that's the point. Given konami's track record, something that could abuse the engine isn't a matter of if but when.

[quote="Debt":3j50yoyv][quote="Christen57":3j50yoyv]

Yes, that Lilith Trap Trick Metaverse engine would still exist even with Mystic Mine banned, but the difference is that that engine wouldn't be as degenerate or unhealthy for the game.[/quote:3j50yoyv]

You can't know that. And that's the point. Given konami's track record, something that could abuse the engine isn't a matter of if but when.[/quote:3j50yoyv]

I think Konami does learn from it's mistakes, maybe not all the time but a lot of times they do, which is why they don't print any more Pot of Greeds or Confiscations or anything like that. I think Konami will learn from this and remember not to print another super unhealthy field spell for the game that locks out too much.

[quote="Christen57":2qmko7x6][quote="Debt":2qmko7x6][quote="Christen57":2qmko7x6]

Yes, that Lilith Trap Trick Metaverse engine would still exist even with Mystic Mine banned, but the difference is that that engine wouldn't be as degenerate or unhealthy for the game.[/quote:2qmko7x6]

You can't know that. And that's the point. Given konami's track record, something that could abuse the engine isn't a matter of if but when.[/quote:2qmko7x6]

I think Konami does learn from it's mistakes, maybe not all the time but a lot of times they do, which is why they don't print any more Pot of Greeds or Confiscations or anything like that. I think Konami will learn from this and remember not to print another super unhealthy field spell for the game that locks out too much.[/quote:2qmko7x6]
The reason why Konami doesn't make more pot of greeds is because we have different variants of pot of greeds to use. Also you're implying that Konami made a mistake of making cards like Pot of Greed or Confiscation, when they weren't a mistake. Pot of Greed was used in the anime a lot, that is why it took it awhile to be banned. Meanwhile Konami printed cards like Firewall Dragon, which was the cause of FTKs and loops, and took them like 2 years to ban. They willingly created the Danger! Archetype, which is one of the most powerful engines that was ever created. Hell Mystic Mine was even approved to be printed. So do you honestly think they won't ever make a busted card that could be used to stop opponent in their tracks while letting enablers for it to run free?

Heck, there's a reason why Instant Fusion and Norden are still banned. Same with Brilliant Fusion, all are enablers that people had used. (Instant Fusion more than Norden).

Also targets that can screw the opponent with the engine I listed for Mystic Mine, Mystic Mine, Summon Over, Lair of Darkness (Combine this with Super Poly and it really hurts), depending on the format Fire Prison, Domain of the True Monarchs, Summon Breaker, Zombie World (Depending on the match up), Secret Village of the Spellcasters (depending on your deck), Necrovalley (depending on the match up), Future Visions (banishing your opponent's normal summon can be crucial). And this isn't even including what else Konami can make, and isn't considering what other field spell that they'd make that can harm the opponent. This is why Metaverse was limited instead of Mystic Mine. (Yes I know Mystic Mine was put to 2, in the same list, which only enforces that Metaverse was a bigger problem.)

As for Verte Anaconda targets, it again leads into what Konami is willing to make and how accessible it is.

[quote="Renji Asuka":22tklars][quote="Christen57":22tklars][quote="Debt":22tklars]

You can't know that. And that's the point. Given konami's track record, something that could abuse the engine isn't a matter of if but when.[/quote:22tklars]

I think Konami does learn from it's mistakes, maybe not all the time but a lot of times they do, which is why they don't print any more Pot of Greeds or Confiscations or anything like that. I think Konami will learn from this and remember not to print another super unhealthy field spell for the game that locks out too much.[/quote:22tklars]
The reason why Konami doesn't make more pot of greeds is because we have different variants of pot of greeds to use. Also you're implying that Konami made a mistake of making cards like Pot of Greed or Confiscation, when they weren't a mistake. Pot of Greed was used in the anime a lot, that is why it took it awhile to be banned. Meanwhile Konami printed cards like Firewall Dragon, which was the cause of FTKs and loops, and took them like 2 years to ban. They willingly created the Danger! Archetype, which is one of the most powerful engines that was ever created. Hell Mystic Mine was even approved to be printed. So do you honestly think they won't ever make a busted card that could be used to stop opponent in their tracks while letting enablers for it to run free?

Heck, there's a reason why Instant Fusion and Norden are still banned. Same with Brilliant Fusion, all are enablers that people had used. (Instant Fusion more than Norden).[/quote:22tklars]

Yeah, Konami seems to hit a combination of problems and enablers, not really just 1 or the other. They hit enablers like Norden, but also problems like True King of All Calamities.

[quote="Christen57":vggu51tb][quote="Renji Asuka":vggu51tb][quote="Christen57":vggu51tb]

I think Konami does learn from it's mistakes, maybe not all the time but a lot of times they do, which is why they don't print any more Pot of Greeds or Confiscations or anything like that. I think Konami will learn from this and remember not to print another super unhealthy field spell for the game that locks out too much.[/quote:vggu51tb]
The reason why Konami doesn't make more pot of greeds is because we have different variants of pot of greeds to use. Also you're implying that Konami made a mistake of making cards like Pot of Greed or Confiscation, when they weren't a mistake. Pot of Greed was used in the anime a lot, that is why it took it awhile to be banned. Meanwhile Konami printed cards like Firewall Dragon, which was the cause of FTKs and loops, and took them like 2 years to ban. They willingly created the Danger! Archetype, which is one of the most powerful engines that was ever created. Hell Mystic Mine was even approved to be printed. So do you honestly think they won't ever make a busted card that could be used to stop opponent in their tracks while letting enablers for it to run free?

Heck, there's a reason why Instant Fusion and Norden are still banned. Same with Brilliant Fusion, all are enablers that people had used. (Instant Fusion more than Norden).[/quote:vggu51tb]

Yeah, Konami seems to hit a combination of problems and enablers, not really just 1 or the other. They hit enablers like Norden, but also problems like True King of All Calamities.[/quote:vggu51tb]
I edited my post to add a bit more detail, so might want to look again since I didn't want to double post. As for this, it really depends on the situation. Sometimes the problem cards should be hit, such as CED back when it was released and was played along side Yata Garasu, there wasn't any real enablers for that outside of Witch of the Black Forest and Sangan, which both did see themselves on the banlist much later if I recall. Meanwhile Gateway of the Six was a huge enabler for Six Sams, which is why it was hit.

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":peik80be]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Ruler
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)
Mystic mine[/quote:peik80be]

Dragoon ban is ok, the OCG did it.

Mystic mine banned? Put it at 1 - 2 is ok, its just duelingbook singles where Mystic Mine is really problematic (Konami generally look at matches and mystic mine is easy to side even mine burn).

Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend? Are you serious? Are you a magic the gathering player or something?

[quote="sophia124":2ciepdz7][quote="AnimeMasterDub":2ciepdz7]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Ruler
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)
Mystic mine[/quote:2ciepdz7]

Dragoon ban is ok, the OCG did it.

Mystic mine banned? Put it at 1 - 2 is ok, its just duelingbook singles where Mystic Mine is really problematic (Konami generally look at matches and mystic mine is easy to side even mine burn).

Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend? Are you serious? Are you a magic the gathering player or something?[/quote:2ciepdz7]
they prevent special summons just by being on the field

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":1ghjvk2l][quote="sophia124":1ghjvk2l][quote="AnimeMasterDub":1ghjvk2l]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Ruler
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)
Mystic mine[/quote:1ghjvk2l]

Dragoon ban is ok, the OCG did it.

Mystic mine banned? Put it at 1 - 2 is ok, its just duelingbook singles where Mystic Mine is really problematic (Konami generally look at matches and mystic mine is easy to side even mine burn).

Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend? Are you serious? Are you a magic the gathering player or something?[/quote:1ghjvk2l]
they prevent special summons just by being on the field[/quote:1ghjvk2l]
Flundereeze is laughing at them

[quote="greg503":29qnlxix][quote="AnimeMasterDub":29qnlxix][quote="sophia124":29qnlxix]

Dragoon ban is ok, the OCG did it.

Mystic mine banned? Put it at 1 - 2 is ok, its just duelingbook singles where Mystic Mine is really problematic (Konami generally look at matches and mystic mine is easy to side even mine burn).

Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend? Are you serious? Are you a magic the gathering player or something?[/quote:29qnlxix]
they prevent special summons just by being on the field[/quote:29qnlxix]
Flundereeze is laughing at them[/quote:29qnlxix]
Then ask Flundereeze how can odd-eyes pendulum decks beat Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":3cba05ht][quote="greg503":3cba05ht][quote="AnimeMasterDub":3cba05ht]
they prevent special summons just by being on the field[/quote:3cba05ht]
Flundereeze is laughing at them[/quote:3cba05ht]
Then ask Flundereeze how can odd-eyes pendulum decks beat Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend[/quote:3cba05ht]
Never heard of monster negation?

[quote="Renji Asuka":2yf51w6o][quote="AnimeMasterDub":2yf51w6o][quote="greg503":2yf51w6o]
Flundereeze is laughing at them[/quote:2yf51w6o]
Then ask Flundereeze how can odd-eyes pendulum decks beat Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend[/quote:2yf51w6o]
Never heard of monster negation?[/quote:2yf51w6o]
unless there is a way to negate my opponents monsters effects continuously without negating my monsters effects then no

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":3gmy490l][quote="Renji Asuka":3gmy490l][quote="AnimeMasterDub":3gmy490l]
Then ask Flundereeze how can odd-eyes pendulum decks beat Vanity's Ruler and Vanity's Fiend[/quote:3gmy490l]
Never heard of monster negation?[/quote:3gmy490l]
unless there is a way to negate my opponents monsters effects continuously without negating my monsters effects then no[/quote:3gmy490l]
Dark Ruler no more?

Forbidden droplets?

Mystic Mine

[quote="Lil Oldman":sv9smwrg][quote="AnimeMasterDub":sv9smwrg][quote="Renji Asuka":sv9smwrg]
Never heard of monster negation?[/quote:sv9smwrg]
unless there is a way to negate my opponents monsters effects continuously without negating my monsters effects then no[/quote:sv9smwrg]
Dark Ruler no more?[/quote:sv9smwrg]
i said continuously

[quote="greg503":37bz2rah]Mystic Mine[/quote:37bz2rah]
that card is on my cards that should be banned list

ah yes, another person complaining about dragoon again, despite the fact they should be complaining about anaconda.

[quote="Neo_Fire_Sonic":k90d8den]ah yes, another person complaining about dragoon again, despite the fact they should be complaining about anaconda.[/quote:k90d8den]
Even though Dragoon was the one that got banned in the OCG

[quote="greg503":3r4gd5pk][quote="Neo_Fire_Sonic":3r4gd5pk]ah yes, another person complaining about dragoon again, despite the fact they should be complaining about anaconda.[/quote:3r4gd5pk]
Even though Dragoon was the one that got banned in the OCG[/quote:3r4gd5pk]
there are several banned cards that can come off the list and nobody would bat an eye.

Nah, Mystic Mine was Limited in the OCG so it gets Limited Instead. The Vanity monsters don't get banned because they only apply to both people.

[quote="james123":l6i1jmvw]Nah, Mystic Mine was Limited in the OCG so it gets Limited Instead. The Vanity monsters don't get banned because they only apply to both people.[/quote:l6i1jmvw]
Someone hasn't read Vanity's Ruler before I see.

[quote="Renji Asuka":h3kz41mc][quote="AnimeMasterDub":h3kz41mc]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Angel
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)[/quote:h3kz41mc]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:h3kz41mc]
Dragoon is simply a broken card that should not exist banning verte is probably most likely not needed as the only fusion card is broken is dragoon. I don't see any fusion cards this broken as dragoon. Banning vete would hurt fusion decks.

[quote="Sound4":1uni8orq][quote="Renji Asuka":1uni8orq][quote="AnimeMasterDub":1uni8orq]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Angel
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)[/quote:1uni8orq]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:1uni8orq]
Dragoon is simply a broken card that should not exist banning verte is probably most likely not needed as the only fusion card is broken is dragoon. I don't see any fusion cards this broken as dragoon. Banning vete would hurt fusion decks.[/quote:1uni8orq]
The problems with Verte Anaconda

1st, its a Link Monster with the easiest materials. Generic. Now Generic cards are fine (in my opinion) cause they can spice the game up with new strategies. But the fact that you don't have to search it (being accessible in the Extra Deck) makes it really strong.

2nd, it bypasses the restrictions on any "Fusion" card. This card allows players to by pass all the downsides of Red-Eyes Fusion.

3rd, even IF Dragoons was banned, another fusion would be used instead, which can cause as much of a problem as Dragoons, making the hit on Dragoons pointless. Hell, people are already using it for Destiny HERO - Destroy Phoenix Enforcer with Fusion Destiny. Which again, can bypass the restrictions of Fusion Destiny.

4th, Power Creep exists, and because Verte Anaconda exists, it would limit the kinds of cards Konami would create. By hitting Verte Anaconda, they wouldn't have to worry about it so much. Its the same reason why Metaverse was Limited because of Mystic Mine. And yes, there is floodgate Field Spells currently in the game that the engine they used (Lilith, Trap Trick, Metaverse) that would again, run rampant later in the game.

Is Dragoon a powerful card? Sure, no doubt about it. But if you eliminate Verte Anaconda, I doubt players will consider running a Red-Eyes Engine just to play it while giving up their Normal or Special Summons. Yeah Dark Magician decks can bust it out (Eye of Timeaus usually, unless Secrets of Dark Magic with a Dark Magician and Mana Dragon Zirnitron), but its Dark Magicians, giving them a great "boss" monster isn't bad. The card isn't even unbeatable. It's negate is only once per turn and gains ATK, so its not oppressive on its own. Sure you can't target it or destroy it by card effects, but that is why you should always be negating Verte Anaconda any chance you get if it is played if you're really struggling against it.

The problems I see from players that usually whine about cards, is the fact they won't build their decks that have built in outs. Imperm, Effect Veiler, Solemn Brigade. Sure the last option is only if you go 1st. You can also just main deck Kaijus if you're a going 2nd Deck. And let's say your deck doesn't use Normal Summons, you could go Lava Golem instead.

What makes Dragoon so oppressive, is what it is backed up with. If backed up with say Appollousa and Borrel Savage Dragon, then you probably weren't going to win anyways. Its a win more card. But when its by itself, there's no issue with it.

[quote="Renji Asuka":227xwjfw][quote="Sound4":227xwjfw][quote="Renji Asuka":227xwjfw]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:227xwjfw]
Dragoon is simply a broken card that should not exist banning verte is probably most likely not needed as the only fusion card is broken is dragoon. I don't see any fusion cards this broken as dragoon. Banning vete would hurt fusion decks.[/quote:227xwjfw]
The problems with Verte Anaconda

1st, its a Link Monster with the easiest materials. Generic. Now Generic cards are fine (in my opinion) cause they can spice the game up with new strategies. But the fact that you don't have to search it (being accessible in the Extra Deck) makes it really strong.

2nd, it bypasses the restrictions on any "Fusion" card. This card allows players to by pass all the downsides of Red-Eyes Fusion.

3rd, even IF Dragoons was banned, another fusion would be used instead, which can cause as much of a problem as Dragoons, making the hit on Dragoons pointless. Hell, people are already using it for Destiny HERO - Destroy Phoenix Enforcer with Fusion Destiny. Which again, can bypass the restrictions of Fusion Destiny.

4th, Power Creep exists, and because Verte Anaconda exists, it would limit the kinds of cards Konami would create. By hitting Verte Anaconda, they wouldn't have to worry about it so much. Its the same reason why Metaverse was Limited because of Mystic Mine. And yes, there is floodgate Field Spells currently in the game that the engine they used (Lilith, Trap Trick, Metaverse) that would again, run rampant later in the game.

Is Dragoon a powerful card? Sure, no doubt about it. But if you eliminate Verte Anaconda, I doubt players will consider running a Red-Eyes Engine just to play it while giving up their Normal or Special Summons. Yeah Dark Magician decks can bust it out (Eye of Timeaus usually, unless Secrets of Dark Magic with a Dark Magician and Mana Dragon Zirnitron), but its Dark Magicians, giving them a great "boss" monster isn't bad. The card isn't even unbeatable. It's negate is only once per turn and gains ATK, so its not oppressive on its own. Sure you can't target it or destroy it by card effects, but that is why you should always be negating Verte Anaconda any chance you get if it is played if you're really struggling against it.

The problems I see from players that usually whine about cards, is the fact they won't build their decks that have built in outs. Imperm, Effect Veiler, Solemn Brigade. Sure the last option is only if you go 1st. You can also just main deck Kaijus if you're a going 2nd Deck. And let's say your deck doesn't use Normal Summons, you could go Lava Golem instead.

What makes Dragoon so oppressive, is what it is backed up with. If backed up with say Appollousa and Borrel Savage Dragon, then you probably weren't going to win anyways. Its a win more card. But when its by itself, there's no issue with it.[/quote:227xwjfw]
The only deck I know that wants to use Red-Eyes Fusion without Verte is Eldlich, and that's probably fine.

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":1iqw698e][quote="Renji Asuka":1iqw698e][quote="AnimeMasterDub":1iqw698e]Vanity's Fiend
Vanity's Angel
Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon (or at least make it limited to 1)[/quote:1iqw698e]
What would be Vanity's Angel? Do you mean Vanity's Ruler?

That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.

Assuming you mean Vanity's Ruler, there's no reason to ban it, yes Drytron can summon it with ease, however, its still a monster that can be easily removed from the field or even have its effect negated. Its attack isn't even high enough to be a real threat. That isn't going into Vanity's Fiend which is a lot easier to summon, but isn't as searchable which has the same weaknesses.[/quote:1iqw698e]
unless you have a way for odd-eyes pendulums to take out dragoon it still in that needs to be banned zone to me[/quote:1iqw698e]
this is my main deck and I have 100 ways to kill it

also you dont need to continually negate it because battle lol all you need is a drnm and/or anything that can crash with it plus my magician package makes it lightwork with supreme king rebellion and lancer can crash no prob with it honestly the only problem is you need to bait out the one or 2 negates the opp has I also have borrelload/sword to beat it and then starving venom plus I play that new Antihuman Intelligence ME-PSY-YA card which is another way to deal with it also boosting monsters with phantom dragon to beat over is easy and is really good with absolute dragon being an exact crash if you baited the negate and then you get vortex out its never been a problem for me in odd eyes

[quote="PENMASTER":1458oj9i]also you dont need to continually negate it because battle lol all you need is a drnm and/or anything that can crash with it plus my magician package makes it lightwork with supreme king rebellion and lancer can crash no prob with it honestly the only problem is you need to bait out the one or 2 negates the opp has I also have borrelload/sword to beat it and then starving venom plus I play that new Antihuman Intelligence ME-PSY-YA card which is another way to deal with it also boosting monsters with phantom dragon to beat over is easy and is really good with absolute dragon being an exact crash if you baited the negate and then you get vortex out its never been a problem for me in odd eyes[/quote:1458oj9i]
impossible

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":25ghk2vu][quote="PENMASTER":25ghk2vu]also you dont need to continually negate it because battle lol all you need is a drnm and/or anything that can crash with it plus my magician package makes it lightwork with supreme king rebellion and lancer can crash no prob with it honestly the only problem is you need to bait out the one or 2 negates the opp has I also have borrelload/sword to beat it and then starving venom plus I play that new Antihuman Intelligence ME-PSY-YA card which is another way to deal with it also boosting monsters with phantom dragon to beat over is easy and is really good with absolute dragon being an exact crash if you baited the negate and then you get vortex out its never been a problem for me in odd eyes[/quote:25ghk2vu]
impossible[/quote:25ghk2vu]
impossible you think its impossible

[quote="PENMASTER":38eoas14][quote="AnimeMasterDub":38eoas14][quote="PENMASTER":38eoas14]also you dont need to continually negate it because battle lol all you need is a drnm and/or anything that can crash with it plus my magician package makes it lightwork with supreme king rebellion and lancer can crash no prob with it honestly the only problem is you need to bait out the one or 2 negates the opp has I also have borrelload/sword to beat it and then starving venom plus I play that new Antihuman Intelligence ME-PSY-YA card which is another way to deal with it also boosting monsters with phantom dragon to beat over is easy and is really good with absolute dragon being an exact crash if you baited the negate and then you get vortex out its never been a problem for me in odd eyes[/quote:38eoas14]
impossible[/quote:38eoas14]
impossible you think its impossible[/quote:38eoas14]
yes

[quote="Neo_Fire_Sonic":2e65j8na]ah yes, another person complaining about dragoon again, despite the fact they should be complaining about anaconda.[/quote:2e65j8na]

There were times that Verte alone makes good bait against opponents using AA Zeus.
(Also, Merry Christmas.)

[quote="AnimeMasterDub":18q9noc0][quote="PENMASTER":18q9noc0][quote="AnimeMasterDub":18q9noc0]
impossible[/quote:18q9noc0]
impossible you think its impossible[/quote:18q9noc0]
yes[/quote:18q9noc0]
https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=8893543 heres my list you can see an out to anything but crooked cook the deck is pretty good comp wise if you put the Antihuman Intelligence ME-PSY-YA in the side deck or to one i have it at 2 for fun also boost allure back to 3 copies for maximum consistency

[quote="PENMASTER":110ovb1h][quote="AnimeMasterDub":110ovb1h][quote="PENMASTER":110ovb1h]
impossible you think its impossible[/quote:110ovb1h]
yes[/quote:110ovb1h]
https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=8893543 heres my list you can see an out to anything but crooked cook the deck is pretty good comp wise if you put the Antihuman Intelligence ME-PSY-YA in the side deck or to one i have it at 2 for fun also boost allure back to 3 copies for maximum consistency[/quote:110ovb1h]
I'll put this deck into consideration

[quote="greg503":2f1cnhfh][quote="Renji Asuka":2f1cnhfh]That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.[/quote:2f1cnhfh]
After getting sacked by it in casual matches, I can say that Dragoon is a roadblock that rouge decks HAVE to play, I can see why the OCG banned it.[/quote:2f1cnhfh]
why would cards be banned for the sake of rogue decks, youre playing a deck that you know has a lower power ceiling, you obviously have to run generic outs to common cards, thats not ban worthy, thats basic deck building.

[quote="ominous":198cyres][quote="greg503":198cyres][quote="Renji Asuka":198cyres]That being said, Dragoon is fine, just hit the Verte Anaconda.[/quote:198cyres]
After getting sacked by it in casual matches, I can say that Dragoon is a roadblock that rouge decks HAVE to play, I can see why the OCG banned it.[/quote:198cyres]
why would cards be banned for the sake of rogue decks, youre playing a deck that you know has a lower power ceiling, you obviously have to run generic outs to common cards, thats not ban worthy, thats basic deck building.[/quote:198cyres]
But what if I didn't want to play with/against meta? Oh wait, that might be a "format" soon(tm)

[quote="greg503":12hanzgk][quote="ominous":12hanzgk][quote="greg503":12hanzgk]
After getting sacked by it in casual matches, I can say that Dragoon is a roadblock that rouge decks HAVE to play, I can see why the OCG banned it.[/quote:12hanzgk]
why would cards be banned for the sake of rogue decks, youre playing a deck that you know has a lower power ceiling, you obviously have to run generic outs to common cards, thats not ban worthy, thats basic deck building.[/quote:12hanzgk]
But what if I didn't want to play with/against meta? Oh wait, that might be a "format" soon(tm)[/quote:12hanzgk]
Then you dont play against meta? why should you not wanting to play meta dictate what others are allowed to play? if you want to have a gentlemen agreement to not play dragoon, then fine, but you shouldnt expect everyone to lower themselves to your standard of gameplay.

[quote="ominous":3pd1g9ct][quote="greg503":3pd1g9ct][quote="ominous":3pd1g9ct]
why would cards be banned for the sake of rogue decks, youre playing a deck that you know has a lower power ceiling, you obviously have to run generic outs to common cards, thats not ban worthy, thats basic deck building.[/quote:3pd1g9ct]
But what if I didn't want to play with/against meta? Oh wait, that might be a "format" soon(tm)[/quote:3pd1g9ct]
Then you dont play against meta? why should you not wanting to play meta dictate what others are allowed to play? if you want to have a gentlemen agreement to not play dragoon, then fine, but you shouldnt expect everyone to lower themselves to your standard of gameplay.[/quote:3pd1g9ct]
And that's why that "format" according to leaks is to limit strategies at the specific locals.

[quote="greg503":at907jrl][quote="ominous":at907jrl][quote="greg503":at907jrl]
But what if I didn't want to play with/against meta? Oh wait, that might be a "format" soon(tm)[/quote:at907jrl]
Then you dont play against meta? why should you not wanting to play meta dictate what others are allowed to play? if you want to have a gentlemen agreement to not play dragoon, then fine, but you shouldnt expect everyone to lower themselves to your standard of gameplay.[/quote:at907jrl]
And that's why that "format" according to leaks is to limit strategies at the specific locals.[/quote:at907jrl]
ok? but thats just going to mean youll have the same problem with different cards, if its not dragoon, its just the next most generic negate monster. even in a new format, which is why all the "fan formats" fail.

[quote="ominous":3d92r2mg][quote="greg503":3d92r2mg][quote="ominous":3d92r2mg]
Then you dont play against meta? why should you not wanting to play meta dictate what others are allowed to play? if you want to have a gentlemen agreement to not play dragoon, then fine, but you shouldnt expect everyone to lower themselves to your standard of gameplay.[/quote:3d92r2mg]
And that's why that "format" according to leaks is to limit strategies at the specific locals.[/quote:3d92r2mg]
ok? but thats just going to mean youll have the same problem with different cards, if its not dragoon, its just the next most generic negate monster. even in a new format, which is why all the "fan formats" fail.[/quote:3d92r2mg]
It's basically gentleman's agreement for that one locals. It isn't really a hard format

[quote="ominous":f9hc3xjd][quote="greg503":f9hc3xjd][quote="ominous":f9hc3xjd]
Then you dont play against meta? why should you not wanting to play meta dictate what others are allowed to play? if you want to have a gentlemen agreement to not play dragoon, then fine, but you shouldnt expect everyone to lower themselves to your standard of gameplay.[/quote:f9hc3xjd]
And that's why that "format" according to leaks is to limit strategies at the specific locals.[/quote:f9hc3xjd]
ok? but thats just going to mean youll have the same problem with different cards, if its not dragoon, its just the next most generic negate monster. even in a new format, which is why all the "fan formats" fail.[/quote:f9hc3xjd]

Can other monsters do omni negate + ATK stack boost, destroys AND burns twice for original ATK , immunity to targeting AND destruction, AND can be summoned easily with 2 cards in hand through Verte (1 in certain cases)?

[quote="greg503":2xz9rmr1][quote="ominous":2xz9rmr1][quote="greg503":2xz9rmr1]
But what if I didn't want to play with/against meta? Oh wait, that might be a "format" soon(tm)[/quote:2xz9rmr1]
Then you dont play against meta? why should you not wanting to play meta dictate what others are allowed to play? if you want to have a gentlemen agreement to not play dragoon, then fine, but you shouldnt expect everyone to lower themselves to your standard of gameplay.[/quote:2xz9rmr1]
And that's why that "format" according to leaks is to limit strategies at the specific locals.[/quote:2xz9rmr1]

What's this "leaks" you're referring to?

[quote="Christen57":3hxkottu][quote="greg503":3hxkottu][quote="ominous":3hxkottu]
Then you dont play against meta? why should you not wanting to play meta dictate what others are allowed to play? if you want to have a gentlemen agreement to not play dragoon, then fine, but you shouldnt expect everyone to lower themselves to your standard of gameplay.[/quote:3hxkottu]
And that's why that "format" according to leaks is to limit strategies at the specific locals.[/quote:3hxkottu]

What's this "leaks" you're referring to?[/quote:3hxkottu]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tONrPLEZgq8

[quote="Jedx_EX":1pjfhm2f][quote="ominous":1pjfhm2f][quote="greg503":1pjfhm2f]
And that's why that "format" according to leaks is to limit strategies at the specific locals.[/quote:1pjfhm2f]
ok? but thats just going to mean youll have the same problem with different cards, if its not dragoon, its just the next most generic negate monster. even in a new format, which is why all the "fan formats" fail.[/quote:1pjfhm2f]

Can other monsters do omni negate + ATK stack boost, destroys AND burns twice for original ATK , immunity to targeting AND destruction, AND can be summoned easily with 2 cards in hand through Verte (1 in certain cases)?[/quote:1pjfhm2f]
Other monsters dont need to, did you actually read what i said or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing.