Custom Archetype "Nobunaga": A Feudal Warlord Burns

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Saraak
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Custom Archetype "Nobunaga": A Feudal Warlord Burns

Post #1 by Saraak » Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:27 am

Hi, this will be the 8th time I'll be showcasing a Custom Archetype, and as usual, it's based around an existing property. However, I tried to make the playstyle unique in its own right... despite being based on a gender-bent version of Japan's most infamous warlord. (Also motivating me to post is the lack of Custom Card posts recently.)

The basic idea that spawned the archetype (other than the obvious) was a field spell that burned both players and summoned a token that could be used to extend plays or as fodder. Meaning that cards like Hinotama could theoretically help your plays if you don't open any other way to deal effect damage (but this is a bad idea). However, I realized that this could create a Link Spam sorta combo deck so I wanted to nip that at the bud, which makes it so that the Field Spell (the main card) pretty much just limits you to special summoning FIRE Pyro monsters.

... Admittedly, it is a heavy restriction, mostly because the pool of viable FIRE Pyro monsters is nigh non-existent. On the plus side, you can't get Kaiju'd unless a Pyro Kaiju monster gets released, so there's that. In addition, many of the archetype monsters can only show their full potential if effect damage has been dealt with in that very same turn. If you notice a broken/interesting interaction or something that you believe should be future-proofed, go ahead and let me know. I currently see this archetype as balanced, but my own perspective could be warped.

TLDR; Burn both players and summon big beaters. The game is ending one way or another.

Art Source (for the 9 cards):

Cards: https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=10514777 (with some suggestion cards in the Side Deck)

Sample Deck: https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=10514510 (with some suggestion cards in the Side Deck)

Replays:
1-Card Combo (but Pyro-locks your field): https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=621063-38260248

Some Notes:
  • Summoning any kind of monster is free game, but once the Field Spell activates, you can only Special Summon Pyro monsters.
  • I'm not sure I worded the Field Spell correctly. I want it to summon a Token for each instance of effect damage that is inflicted, but not when both players are inflicted at the same time. Sorta like the interaction with Soul Absorption and multiple banished Necroface, with each time a card(s) is banished creating a separate chainlink (use 3 Necroface effects, 3 soul absorptions resolve).
  • If you play Fire Vassal, you can use it as a free Tribute Fodder for the Level 6 Nobunaga and rip a card from the opponent's hand, which you can then recycle for the next turn. However, you'll be unable to summon Chacha to directly Set the Continuous Trap. Though, a quick effect pop should still be useful.
  • Dark Room of Nightmares is cool, as it can let you burn even more and possibly summon an additional Token when paired with the Field Spell.
  • Lava Golem can burn your opponent and break their board if going second, which immediately turns on the Level 6 Nobunaga's effect so you can clear it at any time.
  • You can also send the Equip Spell with the Level 3 starter monster, which can help your plays in the long run. It has a GY recovery effect, but it's HOPT, so we won't get a Phoenix Blade situation.
  • Speaking of the Equip Spell, it's where the big beater strategy comes from, by burning your opponent you also power up the equipped monster, which can lead to big swing turns, and if you equipped it to the Level 9 Nobunaga, you'll be able to gain a free 1k attack by destroying 1 other Nobunaga (preferably a Token). However, it doesn't last forever, because then you'll have absurd ATK if it stays equipped long enough.
  • You could play the FIRE Pyro Barrier statue, omegalul. The perks of using an underused type combination.
  • Technically, this is Pyro support.
Last edited by Saraak on Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
An aggregate of all my Custom Cards: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14930
I'm open to being criticized. I'm not a perfect human being who knows when or where he fucked up, but truly willing to learn.

DarwisBellium92
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Post #2 by DarwisBellium92 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:34 am

Saraak wrote:Hi, this will be the 8th time I'll be showcasing a Custom Archetype, and as usual, it's based around an existing property. However, I tried to make the playstyle unique in its own right... despite being based on a gender-bent version of Japan's most infamous warlord. (Also motivating me to post is the lack of Custom Card posts recently.)

The basic idea that spawned the archetype (other than the obvious) was a field spell that burned both players and summoned a token that could be used to extend plays or as fodder. Meaning that cards like Hinotama could theoretically help your plays if you don't open any other way to deal effect damage (but this is a bad idea). However, I realized that this could create a Link Spam sorta combo deck so I wanted to nip that at the bud, which makes it so that the Field Spell (the main card) pretty much just limits you to special summoning FIRE Pyro monsters.

... Admittedly, it is a heavy restriction, mostly because the pool of viable FIRE Pyro monsters is nigh non-existent. On the plus side, you can't get Kaiju'd unless a Pyro Kaiju monster gets released, so there's that. In addition, many of the archetype monsters can only show their full potential if effect damage has been dealt with in that very same turn. If you notice a broken/interesting interaction or something that you believe should be future-proofed, go ahead and let me know. I currently see this archetype as balanced, but my own perspective could be warped.

TLDR; Burn both players and summon big beaters. The game is ending one way or another.

Art Source (for the 9 cards):

Cards: https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=10514777

Sample Deck: https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=10514510 (with some suggestion cards in the Side Deck)

Replays:
1-Card Combo (but Pyro-locks your field): https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=621063-38260248

Some Notes:
  • Summoning any kind of monster is free game, but once the Field Spell activates, you can only Special Summon Pyro monsters.
  • I'm not sure I worded the Field Spell correctly. I want it to summon a Token for each instance of effect damage that is inflicted, but not when both players are inflicted at the same time. Sorta like the interaction with Soul Absorption and multiple banished Necroface, with each time a card(s) is banished creating a separate chainlink (use 3 Necroface effects, 3 soul absorptions resolve).
  • If you play Fire Vassal, you can use it as a free Tribute Fodder for the Level 6 Nobunaga and rip a card from the opponent's hand, which you can then recycle for the next turn.
  • Dark Room of Nightmares is cool, as it can let you burn even more and possibly summon an additional Token when paired with the Field Spell.
  • Lava Golem can burn your opponent and break their board if going second, which immediately turns on the Level 6 Nobunaga's effect so you can clear it at any time.
  • You can also send the Equip Spell with the Level 3 starter monster, which can help your plays in the long run. It has a GY recovery effect, but it's HOPT, so we won't get a Phoenix Blade situation.
  • Speaking of the Equip Spell, it's where the big beater strategy comes from, by burning your opponent you also power up the equipped monster, which can lead to big swing turns, and if you equipped it to the Level 9 Nobunaga, you'll be able to gain a free 1k attack by destroying 1 other Nobunaga (preferably a Token). However, it doesn't last forever, because then you'll have absurd ATK if it stays equipped long enough.
  • You could play the FIRE Pyro Barrier statue, omegalul. The perks of using an underused type combination.
  • Technically, this is Pyro support.

I would place the all monsters at 200 DEF, so to make with a Flamwell/Laval combo.
Im cardmaker pioneer with 15 years experience, KONAMI member illustrator and 360 degrees artist
Albaz/Branded and Gem-Knight/Tearlaments/Shaddoll player

"Not crediting an artist for your crappy custom cards is a world crime."
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Saraak
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Post #3 by Saraak » Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:42 am

That's fair. It lets the Deck gain an Omni-negate through Flamevell Counter and some recovery, which the Deck lacks. I'll change them to have 200 Defense.
An aggregate of all my Custom Cards: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14930
I'm open to being criticized. I'm not a perfect human being who knows when or where he fucked up, but truly willing to learn.

DarwisBellium92
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Post #4 by DarwisBellium92 » Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:49 pm

Saraak wrote:That's fair. It lets the Deck gain an Omni-negate through Flamevell Counter and some recovery, which the Deck lacks. I'll change them to have 200 Defense.

Nice
Im cardmaker pioneer with 15 years experience, KONAMI member illustrator and 360 degrees artist
Albaz/Branded and Gem-Knight/Tearlaments/Shaddoll player

"Not crediting an artist for your crappy custom cards is a world crime."
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Post #5 by Saraak » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:03 pm

This archetype was actually modified a month or two ago, but because of IRL responsibilities, I couldn't update this page to mention the changes. Unfortunately, because I took so long, I don't remember what each card's original text was, so I'm just gonna show all the cards again in a link. Yes, I am lazy

Cards: https://www.duelingbook.com/deck?id=10514777

Generally, I think the playstyle hasn't changed much. Overall, it plays better and isn't as clunky or *insert random buzzword here* as before.
An aggregate of all my Custom Cards: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14930
I'm open to being criticized. I'm not a perfect human being who knows when or where he fucked up, but truly willing to learn.

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Post #6 by Christen57 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:13 am

I'm not sure why Oda Nobukatsu, Faithful Ember needs to have both, or even either, of its effects be once per turn, nor am I sure why its second effect needs to be restricted to specifically level 6 and above Nobunaga monsters instead of just any Nobunaga monster. These restrictions seem to exist just to take up extra space on the card's text.

In fact, its entire effect could be shortened to "If this card is Summoned or sent from the field to the GY: You can add to your hand or send to the GY 1 "Nobunaga" card from your Deck" and it would still be perfectly fine.

Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari's effect can be shortened from:
If a “Nobunaga” monster(s), or a card(s) you control that mentions “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” would be destroyed by battle or card effect, you can banish this card from your hand or GY instead. If this card is sent to the GY: You can take 500 damage, also, after that, send the top card of your Deck to the GY. You can only use each effect of "Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari" once per turn.
to:
If a card(s) you control would be destroyed while you control a card that is a “Nobunaga” monster or lists “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, you can banish this card from your hand or GY instead. If this card is sent to the GY: You can take 500 damage, also after that, send the top card of your Deck to the GY. You can only use each effect of "Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari" once per turn.

When making an effect trigger upon a specific card's destruction, if it doesn't matter whether that destruction is from a battle or a card effect, you can just say "would be destroyed" without including "by battle or card effect".

You also don't need a comma between "also" and "after that" when wording your effect as "Do A, also after that, do B". Look at how Gishki Chain doesn't include such a comma in its effect.

The same thing goes for The Saga of Oda Nobunaga.

Oda Nobunaga, Rokuten Daimaou's first effect can be shortened from:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand or GY) during the turn a player took effect damage.
to:
If a player took effect damage this turn, you can Special Summon this card (from your hand or GY).

Can Oda Nobunaga, Honnouji Daimaou be normal summoned, bypassing its "Must be Special Summoned (from your hand or GY) by Tributing 3 FIRE Pyro monsters from anywhere on the field" restriction? If so, that should be made more clear, like so:
Cannot be Special Summoned except by its own effect. You can be Special Summon this card (from your hand or GY) by Tributing 3 FIRE Pyro monsters from anywhere on the field.
But if it can't be normal summoned to bypass that restriction, you may want to include "Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set" like the other nomi monsters do, so that's clear.

Where The Maouken of Oda Nobunaga says "You can make it gain ATK equal to half that opponent’s monster’s current ATK," you should replace "it" with "your monster" or something so it's clear that this trap card boosts your monster's ATK and not the opponent's monster's.

Honnouji, the Burning Temple's first effect probably doesn't need to be limited to only normal and special summons, since it wouldn't make the card that much stronger anyways, so maybe "is Normal or Special Summoned" could be replaced with just "is Summoned".

Also, its second effect can be shortened from:
If either player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Special Summon up to 1 “Honnouji Token” (Pyro/FIRE/Level 3/ATK 1400/DEF 200) to each field, also, for the rest of this turn, you cannot Special Summon monsters from the Extra Deck, except FIRE Pyro monsters.
to:
If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Special Summon up to 1 “Honnouji Token” (Pyro/FIRE/Level 3/ATK 1400/DEF 200) to each field, also you cannot Special Summon from the Extra Deck for the rest of this turn, except FIRE Pyro monsters.

"either player" and "cannot Special Summon monsters from" can be shortened to "a player" and "cannot Special Summon from" respectively, and you don't need a comma between "also" and "for the rest of this turn" either.

I recommend making the token's ATK and DEF both 0, as since tokens don't allow their stats to be displayed on them like regular monster cards do, tokens usually end up being given a default ATK and DEF value of 0 to help keep things simple.

Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga's effect can be shortened from:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of the following effects.
● You can Tribute 1 FIRE monster, OR discard 1 card if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone; destroy 1 card on the field.
● You can send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monster that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.

to:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of these effects.
● Tribute 1 FIRE monster, or if you control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, you can discard 1 card instead; destroy 1 card on the field.
● Send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monsters that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.


No need to have an effect say "You can activate 1 of these effects" and then repeat that phrase "You can" for each of those bulleted effects.
It should also be clear if choosing to pay the first effect's cost by discarding instead of tributing is optional instead of mandatory, and I currently assume doing so is optional and not mandatory.
Also, "monsters" needs to be plural when referring to "1 of your Nobunaga monsters". It can't be singular.

Also, it may be a good idea to require the tribute to be both fire and pyro, instead of just fire, as this non-targeting destruction looks abusable in fire decks due to being quite splashable in such decks.

Chacha, Consort of the Sun's text can be simplified from:
2 monsters, including a FIRE Pyro monster
If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent. If either player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap directly from your Deck, also if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone, it can be activated this turn. You can only use each effect of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.

to:
2 monsters including a FIRE Pyro monster
You can only use each of these effects of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.
● If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent.
● If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap from your Deck, and if it is a Trap and you currently control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, that Set card can be activated this turn.


There doesn't need to be a comma between "2 monsters" and "including". Konami stopped including such commas with the introduction of stuff like the Unchained Link Monsters.

Also, Konami stopped including "directly" when making effects set spells/traps straight from decks/graveyards, so you can just say "Spell/Trap from your Deck" without including that "directly". Also, I'm pretty sure the effect should check if the card is a trap first before letting it be activated that turn it was set.

Lastly, any time a monster has just 2 effects, both of which activate and are hard once per turn, you should put them in separate lines separated by bullet points, like what I did there. It makes the effect more readable and easier on the eyes.

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Post #7 by Saraak » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:13 pm

Christen57 wrote:I'm not sure why Oda Nobukatsu, Faithful Ember needs to have both, or even either, of its effects be once per turn, nor am I sure why its second effect needs to be restricted to specifically level 6 and above Nobunaga monsters instead of just any Nobunaga monster. These restrictions seem to exist just to take up extra space on the card's text.

In fact, its entire effect could be shortened to "If this card is Summoned or sent from the field to the GY: You can add to your hand or send to the GY 1 "Nobunaga" card from your Deck" and it would still be perfectly fine.


I think that it's fair to suggest making both effects one effect because of their similarity, but I think that it needs to be limited too. Having both effects be infinitely triggerable is just asking for future cards to break it. I'll make it hard twice per turn to avoid this. Regardless, the card's basically been buffed to be able to send either 2 monsters or 2 Spell/Traps within 1 combo.

Also, where did the ROTA effect come from? The Continuous Spell is more than enough of an in-archetype Tenki. Nobukatsu serves as an in-archetype Foolish Burial to get either the protection eff of the Lv6, the extra material in the Lv9, to quickly get to the Lv12 boss monster, or search the Field Spell by milling the in-archetype Tenki. I'd rather not have multiple archetype search cards. The GY eff of the Tenki is the exception because it only searches the Field Spell.

Christen57 wrote:Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari's effect can be shortened from:
If a “Nobunaga” monster(s), or a card(s) you control that mentions “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” would be destroyed by battle or card effect, you can banish this card from your hand or GY instead. If this card is sent to the GY: You can take 500 damage, also, after that, send the top card of your Deck to the GY. You can only use each effect of "Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari" once per turn.
to:
If a card(s) you control would be destroyed while you control a card that is a “Nobunaga” monster or lists “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, you can banish this card from your hand or GY instead. If this card is sent to the GY: You can take 500 damage, also after that, send the top card of your Deck to the GY. You can only use each effect of "Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari" once per turn.

When making an effect trigger upon a specific card's destruction, if it doesn't matter whether that destruction is from a battle or a card effect, you can just say "would be destroyed" without including "by battle or card effect".

You also don't need a comma between "also" and "after that" when wording your effect as "Do A, also after that, do B". Look at how Gishki Chain doesn't include such a comma in its effect. The same thing goes for The Saga of Oda Nobunaga.


The PSCT of 'also after that' for the aforementioned cards has been fixed alongside the `would be destroyed` PSCT. However, I think you mistook the first effect. The Lv6 does not protect other cards. It only protects Nobunaga monsters or cards that lists "Honnouji, the Burning Temple" and nothing else. With the aforementioned fix, it would even protect Barrier Statue of Infernos from Raigeki which isn't the intended interaction.

But this did let me realize that every Spell/Trap in the archetype mentions "Honnouji, the Burning Temple", so I should probably just simplify the effect to `"Nobunaga" card(s)` and nothing more... but that'll exclude the Link monster. Either I keep the previous wording or I just say `If a face-up "Nobunaga" card(s), including "Chacha, Consort of the Sun", would...`. There isn't really any space left on Chacha to add a Nobunaga clause like the Lv3. I could also go with `If a face-up "Nobunaga" card(s), or a card that lists "Honnouji, the Burning Temple", would...` . The wording is up for debate, but this effect needs to be able to protect all archetype cards and nothing more.

Christen57 wrote:Oda Nobunaga, Rokuten Daimaou's first effect can be shortened from:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand or GY) during the turn a player took effect damage.
to:
If a player took effect damage this turn, you can Special Summon this card (from your hand or GY).


Done.

Christen57 wrote:Can Oda Nobunaga, Honnouji Daimaou be normal summoned, bypassing its "Must be Special Summoned (from your hand or GY) by Tributing 3 FIRE Pyro monsters from anywhere on the field" restriction? If so, that should be made more clear, like so:
Cannot be Special Summoned except by its own effect. You can be Special Summon this card (from your hand or GY) by Tributing 3 FIRE Pyro monsters from anywhere on the field.
But if it can't be normal summoned to bypass that restriction, you may want to include "Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set" like the other nomi monsters do, so that's clear.


I thought that the wording implicitly said that it couldn't be Normal Summoned/Set, but I'm looking at the new Byssted cards and now I see I made that mistake and forgot to fix it, which it now is.

Christen57 wrote:Where The Maouken of Oda Nobunaga says "You can make it gain ATK equal to half that opponent’s monster’s current ATK," you should replace "it" with "your monster" or something so it's clear that this trap card boosts your monster's ATK and not the opponent's monster's.


I'm... not sure this is that confusing. The text mentions two targets; my monster, and the opponent's monster. Because the latter text refers to the opponent's monster, shouldn't it be clear that the `it` refers to my monster?

Christen57 wrote:Honnouji, the Burning Temple's first effect probably doesn't need to be limited to only normal and special summons, since it wouldn't make the card that much stronger anyways, so maybe "is Normal or Special Summoned" could be replaced with just "is Summoned".


I don't want to encourage Flip Summoning for this archetype. I'll resort to simplifying it to `Summoned`if I need to save space on the card text, though.

Christen57 wrote:Also, its second effect can be shortened from:
If either player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Special Summon up to 1 “Honnouji Token” (Pyro/FIRE/Level 3/ATK 1400/DEF 200) to each field, also, for the rest of this turn, you cannot Special Summon monsters from the Extra Deck, except FIRE Pyro monsters.
to:
If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Special Summon up to 1 “Honnouji Token” (Pyro/FIRE/Level 3/ATK 1400/DEF 200) to each field, also you cannot Special Summon from the Extra Deck for the rest of this turn, except FIRE Pyro monsters.

"either player" and "cannot Special Summon monsters from" can be shortened to "a player" and "cannot Special Summon from" respectively, and you don't need a comma between "also" and "for the rest of this turn" either.


Done.

Christen57 wrote:I recommend making the token's ATK and DEF both 0, as since tokens don't allow their stats to be displayed on them like regular monster cards do, tokens usually end up being given a default ATK and DEF value of 0 to help keep things simple.


I'd rather not make them 0/0 because the Field's secondary function is to create more small beat-sticks while running over the Defense position one the opponent has.

Christen57 wrote:Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga's effect can be shortened from:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of the following effects.
● You can Tribute 1 FIRE monster, OR discard 1 card if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone; destroy 1 card on the field.
● You can send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monster that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.

to:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of these effects.
● Tribute 1 FIRE monster, or if you control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, you can discard 1 card instead; destroy 1 card on the field.
● Send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monsters that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.


No need to have an effect say "You can activate 1 of these effects" and then repeat that phrase "You can" for each of those bulleted effects.
It should also be clear if choosing to pay the first effect's cost by discarding instead of tributing is optional instead of mandatory, and I currently assume doing so is optional and not mandatory.

Also, "monsters" needs to be plural when referring to "1 of your Nobunaga monsters". It can't be singular.


Done. However, I don't think it's necessary to reword the other cost of the first effect. I'm currently looking at Galaxy-Eyes Solflare Dragon and it uses similar wording. Are you sure it's necessary to change it to be wordier?

Christen57 wrote:Also, it may be a good idea to require the tribute to be both fire and pyro, instead of just fire, as this non-targeting destruction looks abusable in fire decks due to being quite splashable in such decks.


That's fair.

Christen57 wrote:Chacha, Consort of the Sun's text can be simplified from:
2 monsters, including a FIRE Pyro monster
If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent. If either player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap directly from your Deck, also if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone, it can be activated this turn. You can only use each effect of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.

to:
2 monsters including a FIRE Pyro monster
You can only use each of these effects of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.
● If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent.
● If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap from your Deck, and if it is a Trap and you currently control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, that Set card can be activated this turn.


I'm not sure if I want to put bullet points here. Recent TCG releases have shown that they're moving away from the Burning Abyss text structure, as can be seen with the Tearlaments. There are a lot of TCG cards that have two HOPT effects but they don't follow this format, at least not anymore. I think they've abandoned this structure because it saves card space if they didn't.

Christen57 wrote:There doesn't need to be a comma between "2 monsters" and "including". Konami stopped including such commas with the introduction of stuff like the Unchained Link Monsters.


I mean, you're right, but the semi-recent `Beyond the Pendulum` has the comma? But then the one before that, `Blackbeard, the Plunder Patroll Captain` lacks the comma. I'm not sure which to go with so I went with the comma because it was more readable for me.

Christen57 wrote:Also, Konami stopped including "directly" when making effects set spells/traps straight from decks/graveyards, so you can just say "Spell/Trap from your Deck" without including that "directly". Also, I'm pretty sure the effect should check if the card is a trap first before letting it be activated that turn it was set.


Done.

Christen57 wrote:Lastly, any time a monster has just 2 effects, both of which activate and are hard once per turn, you should put them in separate lines separated by bullet points, like what I did there. It makes the effect more readable and easier on the eyes.


Again, the reasoning above. Tearlaments being the recent one, then there are Swordsouls. It might seem like I'm just lazy, but genuinely, I don't see a reason to do so.
An aggregate of all my Custom Cards: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14930
I'm open to being criticized. I'm not a perfect human being who knows when or where he fucked up, but truly willing to learn.

Christen57
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Post #8 by Christen57 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:31 am

Saraak wrote:
Christen57 wrote:I'm not sure why Oda Nobukatsu, Faithful Ember needs to have both, or even either, of its effects be once per turn, nor am I sure why its second effect needs to be restricted to specifically level 6 and above Nobunaga monsters instead of just any Nobunaga monster. These restrictions seem to exist just to take up extra space on the card's text.

In fact, its entire effect could be shortened to "If this card is Summoned or sent from the field to the GY: You can add to your hand or send to the GY 1 "Nobunaga" card from your Deck" and it would still be perfectly fine.


I think that it's fair to suggest making both effects one effect because of their similarity, but I think that it needs to be limited too. Having both effects be infinitely triggerable is just asking for future cards to break it. I'll make it hard twice per turn to avoid this. Regardless, the card's basically been buffed to be able to send either 2 monsters or 2 Spell/Traps within 1 combo.

Also, where did the ROTA effect come from? The Continuous Spell is more than enough of an in-archetype Tenki. Nobukatsu serves as an in-archetype Foolish Burial to get either the protection eff of the Lv6, the extra material in the Lv9, to quickly get to the Lv12 boss monster, or search the Field Spell by milling the in-archetype Tenki. I'd rather not have multiple archetype search cards. The GY eff of the Tenki is the exception because it only searches the Field Spell.


I thought it might be too weak without also being able to search a card, but after testing it, it seems like it only being able to dump cards is good enough, at least for now. It still doesn't need any hard once/twice per turn though, as I found myself neither using, nor needing to use, its effect more than twice per turn anyway.

Christen57 wrote:Where The Maouken of Oda Nobunaga says "You can make it gain ATK equal to half that opponent’s monster’s current ATK," you should replace "it" with "your monster" or something so it's clear that this trap card boosts your monster's ATK and not the opponent's monster's.


I'm... not sure this is that confusing. The text mentions two targets; my monster, and the opponent's monster. Because the latter text refers to the opponent's monster, shouldn't it be clear that the `it` refers to my monster?


In that case, I recommend simplifying the effect from:
Once per turn, during damage calculation, if a “Nobunaga” monster you control battles an opponent’s monster with higher ATK than it: You can make it gain ATK equal to half that opponent’s monster’s current ATK until the end of this turn.
to:
Once per turn, during damage calculation, if your “Nobunaga” monster battles a monster with more ATK: You can give all face-up monsters you currently control 1000 ATK until the end of this turn.

as it's less time-consuming to just give a monster a pre-defined amount of ATK as opposed to calculating half of an opponent's monster's ATK first, which requires more time spent calculating and stuff. Alternatively, you could make the trap simply double the ATK of that battling Nobunaga monster for that turn instead.

Christen57 wrote:I recommend making the token's ATK and DEF both 0, as since tokens don't allow their stats to be displayed on them like regular monster cards do, tokens usually end up being given a default ATK and DEF value of 0 to help keep things simple.


I'd rather not make them 0/0 because the Field's secondary function is to create more small beat-sticks while running over the Defense position one the opponent has.


After testing the archetype, I usually find myself immediately linking away the token, or tributing it off for a summon or effect. I don't really end up keeping it on the field for battling, so I thought it would be fine for its ATK and DEF to be 0.

Christen57 wrote:Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga's effect can be shortened from:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of the following effects.
● You can Tribute 1 FIRE monster, OR discard 1 card if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone; destroy 1 card on the field.
● You can send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monster that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.

to:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of these effects.
● Tribute 1 FIRE monster, or if you control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, you can discard 1 card instead; destroy 1 card on the field.
● Send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monsters that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.


No need to have an effect say "You can activate 1 of these effects" and then repeat that phrase "You can" for each of those bulleted effects.
It should also be clear if choosing to pay the first effect's cost by discarding instead of tributing is optional instead of mandatory, and I currently assume doing so is optional and not mandatory.

Also, "monsters" needs to be plural when referring to "1 of your Nobunaga monsters". It can't be singular.


Done. However, I don't think it's necessary to reword the other cost of the first effect. I'm currently looking at Galaxy-Eyes Solflare Dragon and it uses similar wording. Are you sure it's necessary to change it to be wordier?


The difference between Galaxy-Eyes Solflare Dragon's effect and this card's is that Galaxy-Eyes Solfare Dragon is worded so that you can either discard 2 cards (1 each Photon and Galaxy card). or 1 specific card (Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon), without any other conditions having to be met, whereas this card's worded so it also allows you to pay its cost in one way but requires a specific condition to be met (you controlling the required field spell) in order for you to pay its cost the other way. So as a result, it needs to be clear if you can still choose to pay this card's cost by tributing a fire pyro monster even if you control the specified field spell, or if, once you control said spell, you must now choose only to pay this card's cost by discarding.

For reference, notice how the new Spright Elf is worded as
"You can target 1 Level 2 monster in your GY, or, if your opponent controls a monster, you can target 1 Rank/Link 2 monster instead; Special Summon it"
instead of
"You can target 1 Level 2 monster in your GY, or 1 Rank/Link 2 monster if your opponent controls a monster; Special Summon it".

Christen57 wrote:Chacha, Consort of the Sun's text can be simplified from:
2 monsters, including a FIRE Pyro monster
If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent. If either player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap directly from your Deck, also if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone, it can be activated this turn. You can only use each effect of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.

to:
2 monsters including a FIRE Pyro monster
You can only use each of these effects of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.
● If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent.
● If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap from your Deck, and if it is a Trap and you currently control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, that Set card can be activated this turn.


I'm not sure if I want to put bullet points here. Recent TCG releases have shown that they're moving away from the Burning Abyss text structure, as can be seen with the Tearlaments. There are a lot of TCG cards that have two HOPT effects but they don't follow this format, at least not anymore. I think they've abandoned this structure because it saves card space if they didn't.


Unlike Tearlaments, Burning Abyss was initially a TCG-only archetype before it got released in the OCG. For Tearlaments, it's the opposite — those were OCG-only before they got released in the TCG.

This is important because problem-solving card text slightly differs between the TCG and OCG. In the TCG, they sometimes separate effects using bullet points, and sometimes don't. In the OCG, effects are literally numbered, meaning if your card was being designed in the OCG, it would be worded something like this:
You can only use this card's name's ① and ② effects once per turn each. ①: If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent. ②: If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap from your Deck, and if it is a Trap and you currently control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, that Set card can be activated this turn.

This suggests that, when cards are first designed in the OCG then later get released to the TCG, their hard once per turn effects are likely to not get separated by bullet points since the OCG didn't do that, but when they were designed in the TCG first, those effects are more likely to get separated by bullet points. Since I go by TCG format and rulings (and assume you do as well) when it comes to customs, it makes sense to word your card the way I suggested, as having those 2 effects in separate lines separated by bullet points makes reading them easier on the eyes, whereas having both those effects all in 1 line makes the text look messier and harder on the eyes. These kinds of effects are already easy on the eyes in the OCG due to them already using those big numbers like 1 and 2, with those circles drawn around them, to indicate the beginning and end of each effect.

The TCG isn't "moving away" from bullet point structure any time soon (neither should we), as the more recent Therion archetype uses such bullet points for their monsters' effects.

Also, while it does technically save some card space to not have the effects separated by bullet points, it doesn't save that much card space — just 2 or 3 words worth of card space. It's still easier to read effects that are in separate lines sorted by bullet points, making it well worth the extra few words of card space needed for that.

I mean, think about these posts you've been reading so far. Notice how they're easy to read because we separate everything into paragraphs. Imagine if this entire post was all one paragraph and if nothing was separated through line breaks. It would obviously be a lot harder on your eyes. It's kind of the same thing when it comes to these monsters with just 2 effects, with said effects activating and each being hard once per turn.

So now, after building a basic deck with this archetype and testing it a bit, I can now provide better feedback on some of these cards.

Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari could use some extra effect to make it more viable, such as the ability to special summon itself from the hand if a specific condition (like you controlling a Nobunaga monster, or like you controlling the archetype's field spell) is met, or by shuffling, say, up to 5 Nobunaga cards from your GY into the Deck. Its hard once per turn protection effect is okay, but its second effect to both burn yourself and mill 1 card is too weak, and makes the card currently too bricky and not worth running more than 1 copy of.

It's currently not clear to me if Oda Nobunaga, Honnouji Daimaou's negating effect activates or is continuous. If it activates, it should be "If this card is Summoned: Negate the effects of face-up cards your opponent controls up to the number of "Nobunaga" cards you control."
If it's continuous, it should be "Negate the effects of face-up cards your opponent controls during your turn."

Also, I missed this earlier, but:
Other FIRE monsters you control cannot be targeted for attacks.
can be shortened to:
Your other FIRE monsters are un-targetable for attacks.

The Maouken of Oda Nobunaga's first effect is actually a detriment, since, by "protecting" me from effect damage, it only makes it much harder for me to trigger the field spell's token-summoning effect. Recommend changing that effect to something like:
Once per turn, when a card or effect is activated that includes a damage inflicting effect: You can negate the activation, then you can add 1 of your "Nobunaga" Spells/Traps or "Honnouji, the Burning Temple" that is in your Deck, GY, or banished to your hand. You must control another card that lists “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” to activate and resolve this effect.

Also, like Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari, this trap could use some extra effect, as this trap felt not worth running when I was doing the testing since it wasn't doing enough. Perhaps it could also have an effect to let it activate from the hand (or at least the turn it was set), or a bonus effect like:
Once per turn: You can target up to 5 of your cards that are banished and/or in your GY, including a "Nobunaga" card; shuffle them into the Deck, then draw 1 card.

Also, the link monster doesn't need to be a tuner, and I'm not sure if the level 3 should be a tuner either, as this archetype is clearly a control archetype that wants to slow down the pace of the game with traps/floodgates and slowly overwhelm the opponent with the burn cards and boss monster(s), not an archetype that needs the extra deck for purposes outside of bringing out its one and only link monster.

Here's the testing of the archetype I did so far. https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=58994-43199777
https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=58994-43199980

Saraak
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Post #9 by Saraak » Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:56 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Saraak wrote:
Christen57 wrote:Where The Maouken of Oda Nobunaga says "You can make it gain ATK equal to half that opponent’s monster’s current ATK," you should replace "it" with "your monster" or something so it's clear that this trap card boosts your monster's ATK and not the opponent's monster's.


I'm... not sure this is that confusing. The text mentions two targets; my monster, and the opponent's monster. Because the latter text refers to the opponent's monster, shouldn't it be clear that the `it` refers to my monster?


In that case, I recommend simplifying the effect from:
Once per turn, during damage calculation, if a “Nobunaga” monster you control battles an opponent’s monster with higher ATK than it: You can make it gain ATK equal to half that opponent’s monster’s current ATK until the end of this turn.
to:
Once per turn, during damage calculation, if your “Nobunaga” battles a monster with more ATK: You can give all face-up monsters you currently control 1000 ATK until the end of this turn.

as it's less time-consuming to just give a monster a pre-defined amount of ATK as opposed to calculating half of an opponent's monster's ATK first, which requires more time spent calculating and stuff. Alternatively, you could make the trap simply double the ATK of that battling Nobunaga monster for that turn instead.


The main problem with this is that it prevents the Lvl12 from attacking boss monsters that vastly overpower it. The original intent was for it to allow the boss to defeat giant ATK monsters like Accesscode or the Arrival Cyberse (with the exception being monsters with 6k ATK).

Christen57 wrote:
Saraak wrote:
Christen57 wrote:Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga's effect can be shortened from:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of the following effects.
● You can Tribute 1 FIRE monster, OR discard 1 card if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone; destroy 1 card on the field.
● You can send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monster that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.

to:
Once per turn: You can activate 1 of these effects.
● Tribute 1 FIRE monster, or if you control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, you can discard 1 card instead; destroy 1 card on the field.
● Send 1 other face-up Spell/Trap you control to the GY, then target 1 of your “Nobunaga” monsters that is banished or in your GY; add it to your hand.
You can only control 1 “Rotary Matchlock of Oda Nobunaga”.


No need to have an effect say "You can activate 1 of these effects" and then repeat that phrase "You can" for each of those bulleted effects.
It should also be clear if choosing to pay the first effect's cost by discarding instead of tributing is optional instead of mandatory, and I currently assume doing so is optional and not mandatory.

Also, "monsters" needs to be plural when referring to "1 of your Nobunaga monsters". It can't be singular.


Done. However, I don't think it's necessary to reword the other cost of the first effect. I'm currently looking at Galaxy-Eyes Solflare Dragon and it uses similar wording. Are you sure it's necessary to change it to be wordier?


The difference between Galaxy-Eyes Solflare Dragon's effect and this card's is that Galaxy-Eyes Solfare Dragon is worded so that you can either discard 2 cards (1 each Photon and Galaxy card). or 1 specific card (Galaxy-Eyes Photon Dragon), without any other conditions having to be met, whereas this card's worded so it also allows you to pay its cost in one way but requires a specific condition to be met (you controlling the required field spell) in order for you to pay its cost the other way. So as a result, it needs to be clear if you can still choose to pay this card's cost by tributing a fire pyro monster even if you control the specified field spell, or if, once you control said spell, you must now choose only to pay this card's cost by discarding.

For reference, notice how the new Spright Elf is worded as
"You can target 1 Level 2 monster in your GY, or, if your opponent controls a monster, you can target 1 Rank/Link 2 monster instead; Special Summon it"
instead of
"You can target 1 Level 2 monster in your GY, or 1 Rank/Link 2 monster if your opponent controls a monster; Special Summon it".


Alright, you've convinced me with this. Will update the text.

Christen57 wrote:
Saraak wrote:
Christen57 wrote:Chacha, Consort of the Sun's text can be simplified from:
2 monsters, including a FIRE Pyro monster
If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent. If either player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap directly from your Deck, also if “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” is in your Field Zone, it can be activated this turn. You can only use each effect of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.

to:
2 monsters including a FIRE Pyro monster
You can only use each of these effects of "Chacha, Consort of the Sun" once per turn.
● If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent.
● If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap from your Deck, and if it is a Trap and you currently control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, that Set card can be activated this turn.


I'm not sure if I want to put bullet points here. Recent TCG releases have shown that they're moving away from the Burning Abyss text structure, as can be seen with the Tearlaments. There are a lot of TCG cards that have two HOPT effects but they don't follow this format, at least not anymore. I think they've abandoned this structure because it saves card space if they didn't.


Unlike Tearlaments, Burning Abyss was initially a TCG-only archetype before it got released in the OCG. For Tearlaments, it's the opposite — those were OCG-only before they got released in the TCG.

This is important because problem-solving card text slightly differs between the TCG and OCG. In the TCG, they sometimes separate effects using bullet points, and sometimes don't. In the OCG, effects are literally numbered, meaning if your card was being designed in the OCG, it would be worded something like this:
You can only use this card's name's ① and ② effects once per turn each. ①: If a monster is Summoned to a zone this card points to: You can inflict 500 damage to your opponent. ②: If a player takes effect damage (except during the Damage Step): You can Set 1 “Nobunaga” Spell/Trap from your Deck, and if it is a Trap and you currently control “Honnouji, the Burning Temple”, that Set card can be activated this turn.

This suggests that, when cards are first designed in the OCG then later get released to the TCG, their hard once per turn effects are likely to not get separated by bullet points since the OCG didn't do that, but when they were designed in the TCG first, those effects are more likely to get separated by bullet points. Since I go by TCG format and rulings (and assume you do as well) when it comes to customs, it makes sense to word your card the way I suggested, as having those 2 effects in separate lines separated by bullet points makes reading them easier on the eyes, whereas having both those effects all in 1 line makes the text look messier and harder on the eyes. These kinds of effects are already easy on the eyes in the OCG due to them already using those big numbers like 1 and 2, with those circles drawn around them, to indicate the beginning and end of each effect.

The TCG isn't "moving away" from bullet point structure any time soon (neither should we), as the more recent Therion archetype uses such bullet points for their monsters' effects.

Also, while it does technically save some card space to not have the effects separated by bullet points, it doesn't save that much card space — just 2 or 3 words worth of card space. It's still easier to read effects that are in separate lines sorted by bullet points, making it well worth the extra few words of card space needed for that.

I mean, think about these posts you've been reading so far. Notice how they're easy to read because we separate everything into paragraphs. Imagine if this entire post was all one paragraph and if nothing was separated through line breaks. It would obviously be a lot harder on your eyes. It's kind of the same thing when it comes to these monsters with just 2 effects, with said effects activating and each being hard once per turn.


By reading this, I think this is less of a factual thing and more based on hypothetical observation. Which, to be fair, I've also made and drew a differing conclusion. I'll have to get some outside opinions before I decisively make the change to switch to Bullet Points. I'll also do the same with the aforementioned conditional cost.

Christen57 wrote:So now, after building a basic deck with this archetype and testing it a bit, I can now provide better feedback on some of these cards.

Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari could use some extra effect to make it more viable, such as the ability to special summon itself from the hand if a specific condition (like you controlling a Nobunaga monster, or like you controlling the archetype's field spell) is met, or by shuffling, say, up to 5 Nobunaga cards from your GY into the Deck. Its hard once per turn protection effect is okay, but its second effect to both burn yourself and mill 1 card is too weak, and makes the card currently too bricky and not worth running more than 1 copy of.


I get that but there's also an argument to be made that not every card should be played. It can be argued that this is customs and that if there is a card that isn't played, we should edit it, but the archetype is already functionally complete in my eyes, and only needs some PSCT fixes. I'm willing to increase the number of cards milled if you really want to be more viable, but that's as far as I'm going.

Christen57 wrote:It's currently not clear to me if Oda Nobunaga, Honnouji Daimaou's negating effect activates or is continuous. If it activates, it should be "If this card is Summoned: Negate the effects of face-up cards your opponent controls up to the number of "Nobunaga" cards you control."
If it's continuous, it should be "Negate the effects of face-up cards your opponent controls during your turn."


Atm, it's like a non-activated effect that occurs the instant it's slapped on the field via it's Summoning. As broken as it sounds, I don't want this thing to be negated while breaking a board. I want it to be a more difficult to activate yet semi-limited DRNM. If used alone, it only negates 1 monster, but with a board of other Nobunaga, it would effectively be DRNM.

Christen57 wrote:Also, I missed this earlier, but:
Other FIRE monsters you control cannot be targeted for attacks.
can be shortened to:
Your other FIRE monsters are un-targetable for attacks.


I'll be honest, that looks right but also wrong? The only card I see with `un-targetable` in it's text is a Ritual Spell from 2009. If Konami hasn't been using it, shouldn't I avoid it too? I'll go with `Your other FIRE monsters cannot be targeted for attacks`.

Christen57 wrote:The Maouken of Oda Nobunaga's first effect is actually a detriment, since, by "protecting" me from effect damage, it only makes it much harder for me to trigger the field spell's token-summoning effect. Recommend changing that effect to something like:
Once per turn, when a card or effect is activated that includes a damage inflicting effect: You can negate the activation, then you can add 1 of your "Nobunaga" Spells/Traps or "Honnouji, the Burning Temple" that is in your Deck, GY, or banished to your hand. You must control another card that lists “Honnouji, the Burning Temple” to activate and resolve this effect.


This isn't true. The Maouken does indeed prevent you from taking effect damage, but if the opponent takes effect damage, many of the effects can still trigger. All that matters is that `A Player` takes effect damage, and not just the owner of the cards. I don't want another ROTA, especially one that's complicated and tied into a negate.

Christen57 wrote:Also, like Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari, this trap could use some extra effect, as this trap felt not worth running when I was doing the testing since it wasn't doing enough. Perhaps it could also have an effect to let it activate from the hand (or at least the turn it was set), or a bonus effect like:
Once per turn: You can target up to 5 of your cards that are banished and/or in your GY, including a "Nobunaga" card; shuffle them into the Deck, then draw 1 card.


I feel like every archetype has that, and while it is nice, I want the archetype to avoid having recoverability that shuffles into Deck and etc. This deck will be able to lose to Deck out, and I'm fine with that.

Christen57 wrote:Also, the link monster doesn't need to be a tuner, and I'm not sure if the level 3 should be a tuner either, as this archetype is clearly a control archetype that wants to slow down the pace of the game with traps/floodgates and slowly overwhelm the opponent with the burn cards and boss monster(s), not an archetype that needs the extra deck for purposes outside of bringing out its one and only link monster.


My misclick has somehow come to haunt me. I think this was when I was fiddling with DB's new dropdown menu, which became a dropdown checkbox menu hybrid. Should be fixed now.



No offense, but I am both impressed and horrified. Is this the fate of all slower non-combo decks? To be nothing more than a Mystic Mine carrier if they want to be competitive?

Also, because of the replay, I've noticed that the intended effect of the Field Spell hasn't come across. It might be because of bad wording, but you shouldn't be able to just summon 1 Token and only 1 Token to your side of the field. It's supposed to summon 1 Token to each field on each usage. The `up to 1` text is there in case of situations where the opponent's field is full, in which the field would just summon 1 Token.

How do I rewrite this to get this message across? I feel like the opponent inherently understood this (on the 2nd replay) but if you misunderstood it, what steps should be taken to get across the intended functionality?
An aggregate of all my Custom Cards: https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14930
I'm open to being criticized. I'm not a perfect human being who knows when or where he fucked up, but truly willing to learn.

Christen57
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Post #10 by Christen57 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:00 pm

Saraak wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Saraak wrote:
I'm... not sure this is that confusing. The text mentions two targets; my monster, and the opponent's monster. Because the latter text refers to the opponent's monster, shouldn't it be clear that the `it` refers to my monster?


In that case, I recommend simplifying the effect from:
Once per turn, during damage calculation, if a “Nobunaga” monster you control battles an opponent’s monster with higher ATK than it: You can make it gain ATK equal to half that opponent’s monster’s current ATK until the end of this turn.
to:
Once per turn, during damage calculation, if your “Nobunaga” battles a monster with more ATK: You can give all face-up monsters you currently control 1000 ATK until the end of this turn.

as it's less time-consuming to just give a monster a pre-defined amount of ATK as opposed to calculating half of an opponent's monster's ATK first, which requires more time spent calculating and stuff. Alternatively, you could make the trap simply double the ATK of that battling Nobunaga monster for that turn instead.


The main problem with this is that it prevents the Lvl12 from attacking boss monsters that vastly overpower it. The original intent was for it to allow the boss to defeat giant ATK monsters like Accesscode or the Arrival Cyberse (with the exception being monsters with 6k ATK).


Maybe the ATK gain should be 2000 or 3000 then instead of 1000, or, you could make the effect like Moon Mirror Shield where it just raises the Nobunaga monster's ATK to be 100 higher than the other battling monster's.

Christen57 wrote:So now, after building a basic deck with this archetype and testing it a bit, I can now provide better feedback on some of these cards.

Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari could use some extra effect to make it more viable, such as the ability to special summon itself from the hand if a specific condition (like you controlling a Nobunaga monster, or like you controlling the archetype's field spell) is met, or by shuffling, say, up to 5 Nobunaga cards from your GY into the Deck. Its hard once per turn protection effect is okay, but its second effect to both burn yourself and mill 1 card is too weak, and makes the card currently too bricky and not worth running more than 1 copy of.


I get that but there's also an argument to be made that not every card should be played. It can be argued that this is customs and that if there is a card that isn't played, we should edit it, but the archetype is already functionally complete in my eyes, and only needs some PSCT fixes. I'm willing to increase the number of cards milled if you really want to be more viable, but that's as far as I'm going.


Then I have a different suggestion in mind. Earlier, when I suggested that this monster's effect protect any card instead of specifically the cards that are Nobunaga cards or listed the field spell's name, you said it would then protect floodgate monsters like Barrier Statue of the Infernos.

So I think the following change to the card's text would be more reasonable:
If a Spell/Trap Card(s) you control would be destroyed while you control a card that is a “Nobunaga” card or lists “Chacha, Consort of the Sun”, you can banish this card from your hand or GY instead. If a FIRE or Pyro monster you control would be used as Link Material for a FIRE Pyro monster, this card in your hand can also be used as material. If this card is sent to the GY: You can inflict 500 damage to both players, also after that, draw 2 cards, then discard 1 card. You can only use each effect of "Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari" once per turn.

This change would nerf the card so it no longer protects monsters but instead just the spells and traps, since the archetype needs the spells/traps more than the monsters, but in return, it would have the additional use in the hand of being able to be used as link material for the archetype's link monster as long as the other link material is on the field. Plus, instead of simply milling a card, it lets you draw first, then discard, letting you exchange any potential dead cards in your hand for something new.

Christen57 wrote:It's currently not clear to me if Oda Nobunaga, Honnouji Daimaou's negating effect activates or is continuous. If it activates, it should be "If this card is Summoned: Negate the effects of face-up cards your opponent controls up to the number of "Nobunaga" cards you control."
If it's continuous, it should be "Negate the effects of face-up cards your opponent controls during your turn."


Atm, it's like a non-activated effect that occurs the instant it's slapped on the field via it's Summoning. As broken as it sounds, I don't want this thing to be negated while breaking a board. I want it to be a more difficult to activate yet semi-limited DRNM. If used alone, it only negates 1 monster, but with a board of other Nobunaga, it would effectively be DRNM.


Then its effect can be simplified so it's a continuous effect active only during the controller's turns and negates the effects of the opponent's face-up cards, so you can still break boards with it without completely locking your opponent out of effects.

Christen57 wrote:Also, I missed this earlier, but:
Other FIRE monsters you control cannot be targeted for attacks.
can be shortened to:
Your other FIRE monsters are un-targetable for attacks.


I'll be honest, that looks right but also wrong? The only card I see with `un-targetable` in it's text is a Ritual Spell from 2009. If Konami hasn't been using it, shouldn't I avoid it too? I'll go with `Your other FIRE monsters cannot be targeted for attacks`.


I developed a preference for:
is un-targetable for attacks
over:
cannot be targeted for attacks
since the former is shorter and takes up less space.

Christen57 wrote:Also, like Oda Nobunaga, Kippoushi of Owari, this trap could use some extra effect, as this trap felt not worth running when I was doing the testing since it wasn't doing enough. Perhaps it could also have an effect to let it activate from the hand (or at least the turn it was set), or a bonus effect like:
Once per turn: You can target up to 5 of your cards that are banished and/or in your GY, including a "Nobunaga" card; shuffle them into the Deck, then draw 1 card.


I feel like every archetype has that, and while it is nice, I want the archetype to avoid having recoverability that shuffles into Deck and etc. This deck will be able to lose to Deck out, and I'm fine with that.


I guess I should've been more clear about why I wanted this change to begin with. It was so the last effects of Oda Nobunaga, Rokuten Daimaou and The Saga of Oda Nobunaga wouldn't be usable only 3 times per duel. So in that case, I recommend making those 2 aforementioned cards be able to search out their respective listed cards from also the graveyard instead of just the deck ("If this card is destroyed: You can Special Summon 1 "Oda Nobukatsu, Faithful Ember" from your Deck or GY" and "If this card is sent to the GY: You can add 1 "Honnouji, the Burning Temple" from your Deck or GY to your hand"), and making the link monster able to set from also the graveyard instead of just the deck.

Christen57 wrote:Also, the link monster doesn't need to be a tuner, and I'm not sure if the level 3 should be a tuner either, as this archetype is clearly a control archetype that wants to slow down the pace of the game with traps/floodgates and slowly overwhelm the opponent with the burn cards and boss monster(s), not an archetype that needs the extra deck for purposes outside of bringing out its one and only link monster.


My misclick has somehow come to haunt me. I think this was when I was fiddling with DB's new dropdown menu, which became a dropdown checkbox menu hybrid. Should be fixed now.


I'm actually the one that suggested that Xteven implement that to begin with, so we could finally make custom monsters that are both Union and Tuner. Can't believe he managed to pull it off. He said he'd have major trouble programming something like that in in the first place.



No offense, but I am both impressed and horrified. Is this the fate of all slower non-combo decks? To be nothing more than a Mystic Mine carrier if they want to be competitive?


This currently seems to be the case sadly, but keep in mind that in order for any deck to be able to compete, it has to be able to do something "unfair enough" like putting up an unfair board, pulling off an unfair combo, unleashing an unfair boss monster, or, in this case, locking the opponent out of most things with an unfair floodgate like Mystic Mine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXXUVBwZBOE

Without at least 1 dumb unfair annoying card like Mystic Mine to slow things down to this archetype's pace, the archetype can't keep up with aggro or faster-paced decks.

Also, because of the replay, I've noticed that the intended effect of the Field Spell hasn't come across. It might be because of bad wording, but you shouldn't be able to just summon 1 Token and only 1 Token to your side of the field. It's supposed to summon 1 Token to each field on each usage. The `up to 1` text is there in case of situations where the opponent's field is full, in which the field would just summon 1 Token.

How do I rewrite this to get this message across? I feel like the opponent inherently understood this (on the 2nd replay) but if you misunderstood it, what steps should be taken to get across the intended functionality?


So basically, "up to 1" means "1 or 0". Think of Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier for example. Its effect is to "banish up to 1 card each from the opponent's hand, field, and GY." This does not mean you "banish as many cards as possible from the opponent's hand, field, and GY but not more than 1 card from each of those locations". This means you "banish 1 to 3 cards — 1 or 0 cards from the opponent's hand, 1 or 0 cards from the opponent's field, and 1 or 0 cards from the opponent's GY". This means you choose whether or not to banish 1 card from the opponent's hand (and if so, which card), whether or not to banish 1 card from the opponent's field (and if so, which card), and whether or not to banish 1 card from the opponent's GY (and if so, which card), as long as the total number you're banishing ranges from 1 to 3.

For your effect to function the way you want it to, I'd go with:
You can Special Summon as many “Honnouji Tokens” (Pyro/FIRE/Level 3/ATK 1400/DEF 200) as possible to anywhere on the field, but not more than 1 to each field, also you cannot Special Summon from the Extra Deck for the rest of this turn, except FIRE Pyro monsters.

I must insist, however, that this kind of nerf to that field spell would be completely unnecessary, and that the current effect is perfectly fine letting you choose which player gets a copy of the token and who doesn't.


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