Once per duel restrictions have always been a terrible way to balance effects and should never be placed on custom cards

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Fredblade
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Re: Once per duel restrictions have always been a terrible way to balance effects and should never be placed on custom c

Post #21 by Fredblade » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:12 am

Renji Asuka wrote:
Fredblade wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:Considering the topic is about Custom cards, you bringing up other formats, are irrelevant as you can't play custom cards in other formats.


Considering your reasoning is that is that they're not well executed, but that's the thing, it's an error of execution, not that Once per Duel clauses are inherently bad design.

Not well executed isn't my reasoning. Just that Konami has always made underwhelming cards regardless of Duel Links or Speed Duels and will continue to do so.


The initial topic was about why once per duel restrictions are underwheilming, the duel links stuff was just part of the discussion but it wasn't the main topic.

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Post #22 by Renji Asuka » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:13 am

Fredblade wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Fredblade wrote:
Considering your reasoning is that is that they're not well executed, but that's the thing, it's an error of execution, not that Once per Duel clauses are inherently bad design.

Not well executed isn't my reasoning. Just that Konami has always made underwhelming cards regardless of Duel Links or Speed Duels and will continue to do so.


The initial topic was about why once per duel restrictions are underwheilming, the duel links stuff was just part of the discussion but it wasn't the main topic.

It actually wasn't, it was about why "Once per duel" is a terrible way to balance effects and shouldn't be placed on customs. See title. You can't play custom cards in the formats you brought up.
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Post #23 by Fredblade » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:22 am

Renji Asuka wrote:
Fredblade wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:Not well executed isn't my reasoning. Just that Konami has always made underwhelming cards regardless of Duel Links or Speed Duels and will continue to do so.


The initial topic was about why once per duel restrictions are underwheilming, the duel links stuff was just part of the discussion but it wasn't the main topic.

It actually wasn't, it was about why "Once per duel" is a terrible way to balance effects and shouldn't be placed on customs. See title. You can't play custom cards in the formats you brought up.


It was an example of why "once per duel" on cards isn't always terrible, as I said, the examples you brought up are in the majority just not well executed. You could make a good custom with a once per duel clause, because whether or not is terrible is on the final result.

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Post #24 by Renji Asuka » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:30 am

Fredblade wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Fredblade wrote:
The initial topic was about why once per duel restrictions are underwheilming, the duel links stuff was just part of the discussion but it wasn't the main topic.

It actually wasn't, it was about why "Once per duel" is a terrible way to balance effects and shouldn't be placed on customs. See title. You can't play custom cards in the formats you brought up.


It was an example of why "once per duel" on cards isn't always terrible, as I said, the examples you brought up are in the majority just not well executed. You could make a good custom with a once per duel clause, because whether or not is terrible is on the final result.

What examples did I bring up might I ask? Sounds like you're getting me mixed with the OP.
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Post #25 by Fredblade » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:35 am

Renji Asuka wrote:
Fredblade wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:It actually wasn't, it was about why "Once per duel" is a terrible way to balance effects and shouldn't be placed on customs. See title. You can't play custom cards in the formats you brought up.


It was an example of why "once per duel" on cards isn't always terrible, as I said, the examples you brought up are in the majority just not well executed. You could make a good custom with a once per duel clause, because whether or not is terrible is on the final result.

What examples did I bring up might I ask? Sounds like you're getting me mixed with the OP.


lol seems like it, I'm not used to forum discussions tho

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Post #26 by Christen57 » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:19 pm

Fredblade wrote:
Christen57 wrote:Yeah, I would've rather seen Dotscaper limited to earth cyberse decks, since it's earth cyberse itself, and then given a hard once per turn instead of a once per duel that made it unappealing to play.


There's no pure Earth cyberse decks appart form one from the anime that hasn't been released, also that is one of the cards used by the MC and he uses multiple attributes so that would make the card unplayable in his own deck. Despite all of this, the card has seen some experimentation in mill decks and level 1 decks as well.


Yeah, every once per duel card probably "has seen some experimentation" somewhere by someone. I just think Dotscaper having both a hard once per turn and a once per duel at the same time is too much. Maybe it could have just been once per duel for it's effects without the hard once per turn. That way, it wouldn't be so bad and the main characters could still play it in their decks.

Also you seem like you think the solution is just make everything hard once per turn but hardly restrict everything to its own archetype but that sometimes is far worse because you eliminate one of the fun things about yugioh and that's experimenting with multiple possibilities, there's a reason why CCG's with attribute deck restrictions don't work, nobody wants to feel arbitrarily forced to play a certain type of deck, even in Magic and Pokemon where they used "colored" energy systems, they have sometimes decks that mix different colors.


My solution isn't to make everything hard once per turn but also restricted to their own archetypes. My solution is to give different and better restrictions to only the very powerful or abusable cards than a once per duel. A card like Mystical Space Typhoon that simply destroys a spell/trap doesn't need to be restricted to a certain archetype. A card like Steam the Cloak, that's currently banned because of how abusable it was, should have been limited to maybe dark or winged beast monsters if not just the blackwing archetype instead of receiving a pointless once per duel.

In Magic the Gathering, yes you can mix different colors, but in that game you're forced to think carefully about doing so because the more different colors you try mixing in, the less consistent your deck becomes. You're forced to decide if you want to have access to an extra color but have far less consistency or have access to only 1 color but have the most consistency, and there are major advantages and disadvantages to each.
In yugioh, putting in an extra deck monster like Halqifibrax or Lavalval Chain barely hurt your deck's consistency and would instead improve it since you would then have access to any level 3 or lower tuner you want to bring out or any card you wanted to send to the graveyard.
That's why it's much easier for Magic the Gathering to get away with not restricting cards to specific archetypes than yugioh — because Magic the Gathering is inherently designed in a way where players are always forced to consider the risk of hurting their decks' consistency when colors are mixed, whereas in yugioh, if you wanted to splash M-X-Saber Invoker into your madolche/warrior/speedroid/predaplant deck, it would pretty much always make it more consistent, able to bring out 1 of many warrior/beast-warrior monsters, so these cards like M-X-Saber Invoker had to be banned.
For these reasons, Magic the Gathering also has a way smaller banlist than yugioh, with it being a little less than half the size of yugioh's current banlist.

And even if that lead to things like Halqifibrax breaking half the Tuner cardpool, Zephyros enabling insane loops, that's why we have the banlist after all, also that's more on other design choices like not making Tiger a hard once per turn or Halqi's mere existence, and not on the once per duel card itself.


It's on both the once per duel card and on other design choices. Yes, Lunalight Tiger should have been a hard once per turn, and Halq should have had stricter summoning requirements like needing specifically a water/machine/Crystron monster as one of it's link materials instead of just 1 monster and 1 tuner, but cards like Glow-Up Bulb were on the banlist long before Halq was released in 2020. It was already limited due to it's power and how easy to abuse it was, and even then it didn't matter because people wouldn't play more than 1 copy anyways.
That's another problem with once per duel cards — they can't really be limited or semi-limited. They must be either banned or unlimited. Limiting and semi-limiting them always proved to be pointless since players wouldn't play more than 1-2 copies anyway, and if a player was playing 3 copies of a once per duel card, it was only so they could ensure they either drew it, or didn't draw all their copies of it, for a degenerate combo that would win them the game.
For example, if your FTK revolved around first using Predaplant Ophrys Scorpio to special summon Predaplant Darlingtonia Cobra from the deck (like many past FTKs did), you may play 2-3 copies of Cobra, even though Cobra was once per duel, because if you played just 1 copy, you could draw it and then not be able to summon it from the deck with Scorpio (you couldn't summon it from your hand since Scorpio only special summoned from the deck).

Also cards like Bacon saver, electromagnetic turle would be very annoying do deal with in mill decks, and as I said, maybe those card are trash in TCG advanced, but in other formats like Speed Duels and Duel Links it might be actually decent cards.


Bacon Saver and Electromagnetic Turtle weren't designed with speed duels and duel links in mind. They were designed with the TCG/OCG in mind. If those cards prove to be broken in duel links, that's duel links itself's fault for adding those cards in there to begin with.

Fredblade wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Fredblade wrote:
The initial topic was about why once per duel restrictions are underwheilming, the duel links stuff was just part of the discussion but it wasn't the main topic.

It actually wasn't, it was about why "Once per duel" is a terrible way to balance effects and shouldn't be placed on customs. See title. You can't play custom cards in the formats you brought up.


It was an example of why "once per duel" on cards isn't always terrible, as I said, the examples you brought up are in the majority just not well executed. You could make a good custom with a once per duel clause, because whether or not is terrible is on the final result.


No. Renji Asuka is correct. Once per duel on TCG/OCG cards have always proved to be either bad for the card or unnecessary because of the inherent problems with once per duel itself that I mentioned earlier. For each of those 38 cards I talked about, once per duels have either proved to be unnecessary, ended up making a bad card worse, or only served to try and hide how broken/abusable the card still was.

My point was if you wanted to balance a powerful custom, it would be better to, for example, either just nerf the powerful custom's effect so it isn't that strong to begin with, make the custom have a high discard/tribute/LP cost, restrict the custom to it's own type/attribute/archetype, give the custom a hard once/twice/thrice per turn, make the custom more reliant on other factors such as coins/dice or the opponent, or any combination of these you see fit, as opposed to a once per duel.

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Post #27 by james123 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:47 am

Trust me, It would be stupid to make a card called "Effectfinity" to allow you to use effects that can be activated once per turn/duel any number of times that you want because people would start going hog wild with cards like Bacon Saver, Xyz Agent, and Orichalcos or just clear off the front row with Cyber Dragon Infinity.

https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=2726461
(BTW, this card is just a Joke)
Last edited by james123 on Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #28 by greg503 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:35 pm

james123 wrote:Trust me, It would be stupid to make a card called "Effectfinity" to allow you to use effects that can be activated once per turn/duel any number of times that you want because people would start going hog wild with cards like Bacon Saver, Utopia Agent, and Orichalcos or just clear off the front row with Cyber Dragon Infinity.

https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=2726461
(BTW, this card is just a Joke)

There was a card in the Arc-V anime that let you use an effect "once more"
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Post #29 by james123 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:43 pm

greg503 wrote:
james123 wrote:Trust me, It would be stupid to make a card called "Effectfinity" to allow you to use effects that can be activated once per turn/duel any number of times that you want because people would start going hog wild with cards like Bacon Saver, Utopia Agent, and Orichalcos or just clear off the front row with Cyber Dragon Infinity.

https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=2726461
(BTW, this card is just a Joke)

There was a card in the Arc-V anime that let you use an effect "once more"

What is it?

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Post #30 by greg503 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:23 pm

james123 wrote:
greg503 wrote:
james123 wrote:Trust me, It would be stupid to make a card called "Effectfinity" to allow you to use effects that can be activated once per turn/duel any number of times that you want because people would start going hog wild with cards like Bacon Saver, Utopia Agent, and Orichalcos or just clear off the front row with Cyber Dragon Infinity.

https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=2726461
(BTW, this card is just a Joke)

There was a card in the Arc-V anime that let you use an effect "once more"

What is it?

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Post #31 by Fredblade » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:37 am

Once per duel clauses aren't inherently bad, it's all relative to the execution, Konami might've not executed it well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done right.
I think cards like Dostcaper and Altergeis Pookuery are fine with being once per duel tho, they're not busted if resolved once, but they could get dangerous when the duel becomes grindy if they could use it each turn, and changing their effects to become more restricted, even if it they were made HOPT's instead, it would not be the answer to everything.

Also, I try to experiment with that myself, I'm still testing a custom deck I'm making which revolves arround equipping monsters to gain effects or as costs for their effects such as removal, recovery, etc. I like to think about these kind of effects as one-time boosts.
https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=1212699

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Post #32 by greg503 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:02 pm

Fredblade wrote:Once per duel clauses aren't inherently bad, it's all relative to the execution, Konami might've not executed it well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done right.
I think cards like Dostcaper and Altergeis Pookuery are fine with being once per duel tho, they're not busted if resolved once, but they could get dangerous when the duel becomes grindy if they could use it each turn, and changing their effects to become more restricted, even if it they were made HOPT's instead, it would not be the answer to everything.

Also, I try to experiment with that myself, I'm still testing a custom deck I'm making which revolves arround equipping monsters to gain effects or as costs for their effects such as removal, recovery, etc. I like to think about these kind of effects as one-time boosts.
https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=1212699

Once per duel: draw 1 card is perfectly fair because you're going to draw the other copies
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Post #33 by Christen57 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:40 am

Fredblade wrote:Once per duel clauses aren't inherently bad, it's all relative to the execution, Konami might've not executed it well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done right.
I think cards like Dostcaper and Altergeis Pookuery are fine with being once per duel tho, they're not busted if resolved once, but they could get dangerous when the duel becomes grindy if they could use it each turn, and changing their effects to become more restricted, even if it they were made HOPT's instead, it would not be the answer to everything.

Also, I try to experiment with that myself, I'm still testing a custom deck I'm making which revolves arround equipping monsters to gain effects or as costs for their effects such as removal, recovery, etc. I like to think about these kind of effects as one-time boosts.
https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=1212699


Konami has had over a decade to get once per duel effects right and they've never been able to do it, always printing once per duel card after once per duel card that is either abused in a degenerate combo or just never played. There was no need for Dotscaper to have both a hard once per turn and a once per duel. It should have had 1 or the other, but not both. Maybe then it might have seen play, and even then it would only be played at 1 copy. Altergeist Pookuery is most likely not going to see any play. It already requires too much setup to begin with and is already mediocre without the once per duel, but with it's once per duel, it's really bad. Altergeist players are going to stick with the Multifakers, Silquitous, Meluseeks, Kunquerys, and Marionetters, followed by a bunch of traps and hand traps to disrupt the opponent, as well as some spells like Upstart Goblin for consistency, and then maybe a floodgate or two like Secret Village of the Spellcasters. None of those better cards are going to get swapped out for Pookuery.

Also since you showed only 1 of your Envoy of Gaia customs and not the whole archetype, I can't tell how that 1 custom would work out with the rest of the archetype.

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Post #34 by Renji Asuka » Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:09 am

Christen57 wrote:
Fredblade wrote:Once per duel clauses aren't inherently bad, it's all relative to the execution, Konami might've not executed it well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done right.
I think cards like Dostcaper and Altergeis Pookuery are fine with being once per duel tho, they're not busted if resolved once, but they could get dangerous when the duel becomes grindy if they could use it each turn, and changing their effects to become more restricted, even if it they were made HOPT's instead, it would not be the answer to everything.

Also, I try to experiment with that myself, I'm still testing a custom deck I'm making which revolves arround equipping monsters to gain effects or as costs for their effects such as removal, recovery, etc. I like to think about these kind of effects as one-time boosts.
https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=1212699


Konami has had over a decade to get once per duel effects right and they've never been able to do it, always printing once per duel card after once per duel card that is either abused in a degenerate combo or just never played. There was no need for Dotscaper to have both a hard once per turn and a once per duel. It should have had 1 or the other, but not both. Maybe then it might have seen play, and even then it would only be played at 1 copy. Altergeist Pookuery is most likely not going to see any play. It already requires too much setup to begin with and is already mediocre without the once per duel, but with it's once per duel, it's really bad. Altergeist players are going to stick with the Multifakers, Silquitous, Meluseeks, Kunquerys, and Marionetters, followed by a bunch of traps and hand traps to disrupt the opponent, as well as some spells like Upstart Goblin for consistency, and then maybe a floodgate or two like Secret Village of the Spellcasters. None of those better cards are going to get swapped out for Pookuery.

Also since you showed only 1 of your Envoy of Gaia customs and not the whole archetype, I can't tell how that 1 custom would work out with the rest of the archetype.

Despite Konami having over a decade of making cards, you can't reasonably expect Konami to prepare for every potential combo especially with over 10,000 cards that were released. Especially when it comes to older cards, while may seem bad now, could be used in a busted FTK later down the line for example.
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Post #35 by Christen57 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:24 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Fredblade wrote:Once per duel clauses aren't inherently bad, it's all relative to the execution, Konami might've not executed it well, but that doesn't mean it can't be done right.
I think cards like Dostcaper and Altergeis Pookuery are fine with being once per duel tho, they're not busted if resolved once, but they could get dangerous when the duel becomes grindy if they could use it each turn, and changing their effects to become more restricted, even if it they were made HOPT's instead, it would not be the answer to everything.

Also, I try to experiment with that myself, I'm still testing a custom deck I'm making which revolves arround equipping monsters to gain effects or as costs for their effects such as removal, recovery, etc. I like to think about these kind of effects as one-time boosts.
https://www.duelingbook.com/card?id=1212699


Konami has had over a decade to get once per duel effects right and they've never been able to do it, always printing once per duel card after once per duel card that is either abused in a degenerate combo or just never played. There was no need for Dotscaper to have both a hard once per turn and a once per duel. It should have had 1 or the other, but not both. Maybe then it might have seen play, and even then it would only be played at 1 copy. Altergeist Pookuery is most likely not going to see any play. It already requires too much setup to begin with and is already mediocre without the once per duel, but with it's once per duel, it's really bad. Altergeist players are going to stick with the Multifakers, Silquitous, Meluseeks, Kunquerys, and Marionetters, followed by a bunch of traps and hand traps to disrupt the opponent, as well as some spells like Upstart Goblin for consistency, and then maybe a floodgate or two like Secret Village of the Spellcasters. None of those better cards are going to get swapped out for Pookuery.

Also since you showed only 1 of your Envoy of Gaia customs and not the whole archetype, I can't tell how that 1 custom would work out with the rest of the archetype.

Despite Konami having over a decade of making cards, you can't reasonably expect Konami to prepare for every potential combo especially with over 10,000 cards that were released. Especially when it comes to older cards, while may seem bad now, could be used in a busted FTK later down the line for example.


Yes. This has been the issue with every one per duel card. It either sees no play or is used in a busted combo, and some once per duel cards can ending up switching between these two categories, meaning some once per duel cards can see no competitive play one moment, then a card gets released or unbanned which forms a broken combo with said once per duel card, and now said once per duel card is used just in that broken combo until something gets banned/errata'd, and then said once per duel card used in said combo goes back to seeing no play.

One example that came to mind was Infernoble Knight Astolfo and Smoke Grenade of the Thief. Astolfo saw no competitive play until players figured out a degenerate Infernoble Knight combo with Smoke Grenade, so then some players played at least 1 Astolfo in just that degenerate Smoke Grenade of the Thief hand loop combo until Smoke Grenade got banned. Now Astolfo has gone back to seeing no play.

I also think about my beloved Performapal Splashmammoth. I played this card prior to master rule 4 back when we had Skullcrobat Joker to search it. Then master rule 4 came, nerfing all pendulum decks, and Joker got banned, so I can't play this anymore, and even with Joker back to 2 this card still sees no more play. It's once per duel was so powerful that resolving it even once was enough to help me win the vast majority of my games. It's once per duel felt so pointless. Even the other Performapals with built-in polymerizations that didn't have any once per duel saw no play.

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Post #36 by Sound4 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 5:31 pm

Agreed but there are some OP cards that have OP effects that should only be once per duels.

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Post #37 by greg503 » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:54 pm

Sound4 wrote:Agreed but there are some OP cards that have OP effects that should only be once per duels.

Oh? Like what?
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