Christen57 wrote:Yeah, I would've rather seen Dotscaper limited to earth cyberse decks, since it's earth cyberse itself, and then given a hard once per turn instead of a once per duel that made it unappealing to play.
There's no pure Earth cyberse decks appart form one from the anime that hasn't been released, also that is one of the cards used by the MC and he uses multiple attributes so that would make the card unplayable in his own deck. Despite all of this, the card has seen some experimentation in mill decks and level 1 decks as well.
Yeah, every once per duel card probably "has seen some experimentation" somewhere by someone. I just think Dotscaper having both a hard once per turn and a once per duel at the same time is too much. Maybe it could have just been once per duel for it's effects without the hard once per turn. That way, it wouldn't be so bad and the main characters could still play it in their decks.
Also you seem like you think the solution is just make everything hard once per turn but hardly restrict everything to its own archetype but that sometimes is far worse because you eliminate one of the fun things about yugioh and that's experimenting with multiple possibilities, there's a reason why CCG's with attribute deck restrictions don't work, nobody wants to feel arbitrarily forced to play a certain type of deck, even in Magic and Pokemon where they used "colored" energy systems, they have sometimes decks that mix different colors.
My solution isn't to make everything hard once per turn but also restricted to their own archetypes. My solution is to give different and better restrictions to only the very powerful or abusable cards than a once per duel. A card like Mystical Space Typhoon that simply destroys a spell/trap doesn't need to be restricted to a certain archetype. A card like Steam the Cloak, that's currently banned because of how abusable it was, should have been limited to maybe dark or winged beast monsters if not just the blackwing archetype instead of receiving a pointless once per duel.
In Magic the Gathering, yes you can mix different colors, but in that game you're forced to think carefully about doing so because the more different colors you try mixing in, the less consistent your deck becomes. You're forced to decide if you want to have access to an extra color but have far less consistency or have access to only 1 color but have the most consistency, and there are major advantages and disadvantages to each.
In yugioh, putting in an extra deck monster like Halqifibrax or Lavalval Chain barely hurt your deck's consistency and would instead improve it since you would then have access to any level 3 or lower tuner you want to bring out or any card you wanted to send to the graveyard.
That's why it's much easier for Magic the Gathering to get away with not restricting cards to specific archetypes than yugioh — because Magic the Gathering is inherently designed in a way where players are always forced to consider the risk of hurting their decks' consistency when colors are mixed, whereas in yugioh, if you wanted to splash M-X-Saber Invoker into your madolche/warrior/speedroid/predaplant deck, it would pretty much always make it more consistent, able to bring out 1 of many warrior/beast-warrior monsters, so these cards like M-X-Saber Invoker had to be banned.
For these reasons, Magic the Gathering also has a way smaller banlist than yugioh, with it being a little less than half the size of yugioh's current banlist.
And even if that lead to things like Halqifibrax breaking half the Tuner cardpool, Zephyros enabling insane loops, that's why we have the banlist after all, also that's more on other design choices like not making Tiger a hard once per turn or Halqi's mere existence, and not on the once per duel card itself.
It's on both the once per duel card and on other design choices. Yes, Lunalight Tiger should have been a hard once per turn, and Halq should have had stricter summoning requirements like needing specifically a water/machine/Crystron monster as one of it's link materials instead of just 1 monster and 1 tuner, but cards like Glow-Up Bulb were on the banlist long before Halq was released in 2020. It was already limited due to it's power and how easy to abuse it was, and even then it didn't matter because people wouldn't play more than 1 copy anyways.
That's another problem with once per duel cards — they can't really be limited or semi-limited. They must be either banned or unlimited. Limiting and semi-limiting them always proved to be pointless since players wouldn't play more than 1-2 copies anyway, and if a player was playing 3 copies of a once per duel card, it was only so they could ensure they either drew it, or didn't draw all their copies of it, for a degenerate combo that would win them the game.
For example, if your FTK revolved around first using Predaplant Ophrys Scorpio to special summon Predaplant Darlingtonia Cobra from the deck (like many past FTKs did), you may play 2-3 copies of Cobra, even though Cobra was once per duel, because if you played just 1 copy, you could draw it and then not be able to summon it from the deck with Scorpio (you couldn't summon it from your hand since Scorpio only special summoned from the deck).
Also cards like Bacon saver, electromagnetic turle would be very annoying do deal with in mill decks, and as I said, maybe those card are trash in TCG advanced, but in other formats like Speed Duels and Duel Links it might be actually decent cards.
Bacon Saver and Electromagnetic Turtle weren't designed with speed duels and duel links in mind. They were designed with the TCG/OCG in mind. If those cards prove to be broken in duel links, that's duel links itself's fault for adding those cards in there to begin with.
Fredblade wrote: Renji Asuka wrote:
The initial topic was about why once per duel restrictions are underwheilming, the duel links stuff was just part of the discussion but it wasn't the main topic.
It actually wasn't, it was about why "Once per duel" is a terrible way to balance effects and shouldn't be placed on customs. See title. You can't play custom cards in the formats you brought up.
It was an example of why "once per duel" on cards isn't always terrible, as I said, the examples you brought up are in the majority just not well executed. You could make a good custom with a once per duel clause, because whether or not is terrible is on the final result.
No. Renji Asuka is correct. Once per duel on TCG/OCG cards have always proved to be either bad for the card or unnecessary because of the inherent problems with once per duel itself that I mentioned earlier. For each of those 38 cards I talked about, once per duels have either proved to be unnecessary, ended up making a bad card worse, or only served to try and hide how broken/abusable the card still was.
My point was if you wanted to balance a powerful custom, it would be better to, for example, either just nerf the powerful custom's effect so it isn't that strong to begin with, make the custom have a high discard/tribute/LP cost, restrict the custom to it's own type/attribute/archetype, give the custom a hard once/twice/thrice per turn, make the custom more reliant on other factors such as coins/dice or the opponent, or any combination of these you see fit, as opposed to a once per duel.