Silence is Consent in Yugioh Just had Confirmation

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itsmetristan
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Re: Silence is Consent in Yugioh Just had Confirmation

Post #261 by itsmetristan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:52 pm

SHIFTY786 wrote:Why would I stall when I won the match lol.
Why would I stall when I beat kids like that for breakfast.
Why would i stall when a judge is present.
Why would i stall when i won the match.
Why would i stall when I've had 1000's of games and never stalled in my life.

Serious you need to stop, you are embarassing yourself for the sake of defending your friend.
Judges should have a good sense of being fair and unbiased. Clearly this is not the case here .


We all know what Last Turn does. You were going to lose game 3 regardless of what the judge did.
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Post #262 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:05 pm

No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would run over his monster lol.

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Post #263 by itsmetristan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:25 pm

SHIFTY786 wrote:No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would run over his monster lol.


Ah, I see. That detail was probably missed then. I didn't notice it either. Did you submit a report already?
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Post #264 by Christen57 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:32 pm

SHIFTY786 wrote:
Genexwrecker wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:

Because waiting for a judge on a ruling question is stalling.
Lol the level of ignorance is unheard of.
Also why would I stall a game when theres a judge online literally makes 0 sense

I dont buy that you dont know how targeting works. that is one of the most fundamental aspects of the game which is required to know for normal play. you have also established that ur a very seasoned player. there is no way you did not know how mst worked there.


I never claimed I never knew about targeting.


You may not have "claimed" you never knew about targeting, but you did show it.

[16:34] Activated "Mystical Space Typhoon" from hand (5/6) to S-3
[16:35] Activated Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:40] Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:45] "are you in M1 or SP"

[16:50] "sp"
[16:54] "okay sure "
[16:56] "target"

[17:09] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:11] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:14] Signaled OK
[17:20] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:21] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:27] "whats your target?"
[17:50] "not showing on my end"
[17:58] "hello?"

[18:17] Pointed at Set "Last Turn" in S-3
[18:40] "are you trying to get me to commit to Last Turn in SP so you can summon your returned to hand serpent and attack over jowgen for game?"
[18:50] "yes"
[18:52] Viewed GY

[18:54] "yeah"
[18:54] Stopped viewing GY
[18:57] "not my first time"
[19:04] "i got this"
[19:07] Activated Set "Magic Jammer" in S-5
[19:09] Sent "Heavy Storm" from hand (3/3) to GY
[19:10] Sent "Magic Jammer" from S-5 to GY

[19:11] Sent "Mystical Space Typhoon" from S-3 to GY
[19:35] "anything else in SP?"
[19:36] "you cant jammer"
[19:43] "yes i can"
[19:53] "as you asked for target"
[20:05] "excuse me LOL"
[20:09] "i can jammer"

[20:12] "yeah"
[20:15] Called a judge for Ruling
[20:21] "unreal dude"

[20:23] "needs to be done on activation"

Here, it's clear that you thought that Mystical Space Typhoon activates, then the opponent gets the chance to respond, and if they don't/can't respond, you then designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon. This is incorrect. The proper order is that you activate Mystical Space Typhoon, designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon, and then, after both players understand what the target is, that is when your opponent gets the chance to respond if they have an appropriate response.

However, if, for example, you were resolving the effect of Destiny HERO - Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer to destroy 2 cards, then in that case, you wouldn't need to tell your opponent what you're choosing to destroy before they got the chance to respond, since Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer's effects don't target, but since you were activate something that did target (Mystical Space Typhoon), your opponent must know what you're targeting before they decided if/how they wish to respond.

I was misinformed regarding negation. I was told that negation must be done before targeting.


You relied on your... mommy, to give you a ruling on how Mystical Space Typhoon works? A woman who has no understanding of how the game and problem-solving card text works or plays the game competitively herself? You relied on her, over a qualified judge who took the actual judge exam and proved to be worthy of judging and giving rulings, for a ruling issue? Why??

[23:16] "i can negate even if you target my card with your MST"
[23:18] "i used mst"
[23:27] "no u cant"

[23:32] "sure i can"
[23:38] "find a ruling that says i cant"
[23:46] "i think you dont want me to becasue that means you lose"

[23:53] "after ive selected a target your negation window is missed"
[23:55] "since you are losing you make up things to win "
[23:59] "wrong"

[24:01] "i asked my mommy"
[24:02] "and your not 13"
[24:05] "sje confirmed"
[24:07] "stop it"
[24:13] "we'll wait for a judge"

[24:18] "k"

This is not enough for a ban.


What was enough though was the fact that that judge determined that you stalled since you were in a losing position, and that all the opponent had to do was play Last Turn, in combination with their Jowgen, to win, as the other judge in this thread explained.

Also judges cant patronise players or assume the player knows everything.


They do assume that you know at least some things though, like how Mystical Space Typhoon's targeting works, especially since you stated on your profile that you placed well in multiple previous yugioh locals and regionals, which would indicate that you're already experience with the game and basic rulings. https://imgur.com/cD1YzxW

No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would over his monster lol.


At first I actually thought this would've work, but after looking at Last Turn's ruling page, I'm afraid it wouldn't have. It specifically says, and I quote:

"Last Turn" is not a card that Special Summons a monster when it resolves. Therefore you can activate "Last Turn" even while "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is face-up on the field. If the player activating "Last Turn" controls "Jowgen the Spiritualist" and selects it as the monster to keep, the opponent cannot Special Summon for "Last Turn", and there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase.
The special Battle Phase for "Last Turn" happens right after the monster is Special Summoned. It is in addition to the normal Battle Phase and does not disrupt the normal order of the turn. For example, if "Last Turn" is activated during the Draw Phase, resolves the effect, Special Summon, initiate the special Battle Phase, then continue with the Draw Phase. The turn player can have a normal Battle Phase later in the turn.
The special Battle Phase is treated like a standard Battle Phase in every other way, with a Start Step, Battle Step, Damage Step, and End Step. Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle.


Look at that last part there. "Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle".
This means that you wouldn't be able to search a monster with Sangan's graveyard effect, normal summon that searched monster, then use that normal summoned monster to "over his monster". This means that if you don't special summon any monster with Last Turn's effect, you don't "over" anything, meaning Jowgen remains on the field during the end phase, meaning you would certainly lose.

The judge determined that since this would've clearly happened, and that since you were delaying the inevitable, you were maliciously stalling. Judges can determine that you're maliciously stalling when it's clear you're going to lose and you delay it for no good reason.

itsmetristan wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would run over his monster lol.


Ah, I see. That detail was probably missed then. I didn't notice it either. Did you submit a report already?


No, itsmetristan. He would not have been able to search a monster with Sangan's effect, normal summon it, and use any normal summoned monster to beat over the Jowgen. The ruling page I linked explicitly stated that only the monster selected by Last Turn's effect and the monster special summoned by Last Turn's effect (if any is special summoned) can battle.

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Post #265 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:42 pm

there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase

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Post #266 by itsmetristan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:42 pm

Christen57 wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:
Genexwrecker wrote:I dont buy that you dont know how targeting works. that is one of the most fundamental aspects of the game which is required to know for normal play. you have also established that ur a very seasoned player. there is no way you did not know how mst worked there.


I never claimed I never knew about targeting.


You may not have "claimed" you never knew about targeting, but you did show it.

[16:34] Activated "Mystical Space Typhoon" from hand (5/6) to S-3
[16:35] Activated Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:40] Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:45] "are you in M1 or SP"

[16:50] "sp"
[16:54] "okay sure "
[16:56] "target"

[17:09] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:11] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:14] Signaled OK
[17:20] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:21] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:27] "whats your target?"
[17:50] "not showing on my end"
[17:58] "hello?"

[18:17] Pointed at Set "Last Turn" in S-3
[18:40] "are you trying to get me to commit to Last Turn in SP so you can summon your returned to hand serpent and attack over jowgen for game?"
[18:50] "yes"
[18:52] Viewed GY

[18:54] "yeah"
[18:54] Stopped viewing GY
[18:57] "not my first time"
[19:04] "i got this"
[19:07] Activated Set "Magic Jammer" in S-5
[19:09] Sent "Heavy Storm" from hand (3/3) to GY
[19:10] Sent "Magic Jammer" from S-5 to GY

[19:11] Sent "Mystical Space Typhoon" from S-3 to GY
[19:35] "anything else in SP?"
[19:36] "you cant jammer"
[19:43] "yes i can"
[19:53] "as you asked for target"
[20:05] "excuse me LOL"
[20:09] "i can jammer"

[20:12] "yeah"
[20:15] Called a judge for Ruling
[20:21] "unreal dude"

[20:23] "needs to be done on activation"

Here, it's clear that you thought that Mystical Space Typhoon activates, then the opponent gets the chance to respond, and if they don't/can't respond, you then designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon. This is incorrect. The proper order is that you activate Mystical Space Typhoon, designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon, and then, after both players understand what the target is, that is when your opponent gets the chance to respond if they have an appropriate response.

However, if, for example, you were resolving the effect of Destiny HERO - Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer to destroy 2 cards, then in that case, you wouldn't need to tell your opponent what you're choosing to destroy before they got the chance to respond, since Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer's effects don't target, but since you were activate something that did target (Mystical Space Typhoon), your opponent must know what you're targeting before they decided if/how they wish to respond.

I was misinformed regarding negation. I was told that negation must be done before targeting.


You relied on your... mommy, to give you a ruling on how Mystical Space Typhoon works? A woman who has no understanding of how the game and problem-solving card text works or plays the game competitively herself? You relied on her, over a qualified judge who took the actual judge exam and proved to be worthy of judging and giving rulings, for a ruling issue? Why??

[23:16] "i can negate even if you target my card with your MST"
[23:18] "i used mst"
[23:27] "no u cant"

[23:32] "sure i can"
[23:38] "find a ruling that says i cant"
[23:46] "i think you dont want me to becasue that means you lose"

[23:53] "after ive selected a target your negation window is missed"
[23:55] "since you are losing you make up things to win "
[23:59] "wrong"

[24:01] "i asked my mommy"
[24:02] "and your not 13"
[24:05] "sje confirmed"
[24:07] "stop it"
[24:13] "we'll wait for a judge"

[24:18] "k"

This is not enough for a ban.


What was enough though was the fact that that judge determined that you stalled since you were in a losing position, and that all the opponent had to do was play Last Turn, in combination with their Jowgen, to win, as the other judge in this thread explained.

Also judges cant patronise players or assume the player knows everything.


They do assume that you know at least some things though, like how Mystical Space Typhoon's targeting works, especially since you stated on your profile that you placed well in multiple previous yugioh locals and regionals, which would indicate that you're already experience with the game and basic rulings. https://imgur.com/cD1YzxW

No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would over his monster lol.


At first I actually thought this would've work, but after looking at Last Turn's ruling page, I'm afraid it wouldn't have. It specifically says, and I quote:

"Last Turn" is not a card that Special Summons a monster when it resolves. Therefore you can activate "Last Turn" even while "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is face-up on the field. If the player activating "Last Turn" controls "Jowgen the Spiritualist" and selects it as the monster to keep, the opponent cannot Special Summon for "Last Turn", and there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase.
The special Battle Phase for "Last Turn" happens right after the monster is Special Summoned. It is in addition to the normal Battle Phase and does not disrupt the normal order of the turn. For example, if "Last Turn" is activated during the Draw Phase, resolves the effect, Special Summon, initiate the special Battle Phase, then continue with the Draw Phase. The turn player can have a normal Battle Phase later in the turn.
The special Battle Phase is treated like a standard Battle Phase in every other way, with a Start Step, Battle Step, Damage Step, and End Step. Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle.


Look at that last part there. "Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle".
This means that you wouldn't be able to search a monster with Sangan's graveyard effect, normal summon that searched monster, then use that normal summoned monster to "over his monster". This means that if you don't special summon any monster with Last Turn's effect, you don't "over" anything, meaning Jowgen remains on the field during the end phase, meaning you would certainly lose.

The judge determined that since this would've clearly happened, and that since you were delaying the inevitable, you were maliciously stalling. Judges can determine that you're maliciously stalling when it's clear you're going to lose and you delay it for no good reason.

itsmetristan wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would run over his monster lol.


Ah, I see. That detail was probably missed then. I didn't notice it either. Did you submit a report already?


No, itsmetristan. He would not have been able to search a monster with Sangan's effect, normal summon it, and use any normal summoned monster to beat over the Jowgen. The ruling page I linked explicitly stated that only the monster selected by Last Turn's effect and the monster special summoned by Last Turn's effect (if any is special summoned) can battle.


Yes he can do that. That rule regarding last turn only applies to the additional, "special" battle phase last turn creates. You can still have your normal battle phase and attack over Jowgen then with the monster added with Sangan. Also, this special battle phase doesn't occur when Jowgen is applying.
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Post #267 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:43 pm

itsmetristan wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would run over his monster lol.


Ah, I see. That detail was probably missed then. I didn't notice it either. Did you submit a report already?


Yes but it's been days with no response. How long do these appeals take?

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Post #268 by itsmetristan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:44 pm

SHIFTY786 wrote:
itsmetristan wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would run over his monster lol.


Ah, I see. That detail was probably missed then. I didn't notice it either. Did you submit a report already?


Yes but it's been days with no response. How long do these appeals take?


It varies. I'll be looking over some later so I may get to yours.
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Post #269 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:51 pm

itsmetristan wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:
I never claimed I never knew about targeting.


You may not have "claimed" you never knew about targeting, but you did show it.

[16:34] Activated "Mystical Space Typhoon" from hand (5/6) to S-3
[16:35] Activated Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:40] Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:45] "are you in M1 or SP"

[16:50] "sp"
[16:54] "okay sure "
[16:56] "target"

[17:09] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:11] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:14] Signaled OK
[17:20] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:21] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:27] "whats your target?"
[17:50] "not showing on my end"
[17:58] "hello?"

[18:17] Pointed at Set "Last Turn" in S-3
[18:40] "are you trying to get me to commit to Last Turn in SP so you can summon your returned to hand serpent and attack over jowgen for game?"
[18:50] "yes"
[18:52] Viewed GY

[18:54] "yeah"
[18:54] Stopped viewing GY
[18:57] "not my first time"
[19:04] "i got this"
[19:07] Activated Set "Magic Jammer" in S-5
[19:09] Sent "Heavy Storm" from hand (3/3) to GY
[19:10] Sent "Magic Jammer" from S-5 to GY

[19:11] Sent "Mystical Space Typhoon" from S-3 to GY
[19:35] "anything else in SP?"
[19:36] "you cant jammer"
[19:43] "yes i can"
[19:53] "as you asked for target"
[20:05] "excuse me LOL"
[20:09] "i can jammer"

[20:12] "yeah"
[20:15] Called a judge for Ruling
[20:21] "unreal dude"

[20:23] "needs to be done on activation"

Here, it's clear that you thought that Mystical Space Typhoon activates, then the opponent gets the chance to respond, and if they don't/can't respond, you then designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon. This is incorrect. The proper order is that you activate Mystical Space Typhoon, designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon, and then, after both players understand what the target is, that is when your opponent gets the chance to respond if they have an appropriate response.

However, if, for example, you were resolving the effect of Destiny HERO - Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer to destroy 2 cards, then in that case, you wouldn't need to tell your opponent what you're choosing to destroy before they got the chance to respond, since Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer's effects don't target, but since you were activate something that did target (Mystical Space Typhoon), your opponent must know what you're targeting before they decided if/how they wish to respond.

I was misinformed regarding negation. I was told that negation must be done before targeting.


You relied on your... mommy, to give you a ruling on how Mystical Space Typhoon works? A woman who has no understanding of how the game and problem-solving card text works or plays the game competitively herself? You relied on her, over a qualified judge who took the actual judge exam and proved to be worthy of judging and giving rulings, for a ruling issue? Why??

[23:16] "i can negate even if you target my card with your MST"
[23:18] "i used mst"
[23:27] "no u cant"

[23:32] "sure i can"
[23:38] "find a ruling that says i cant"
[23:46] "i think you dont want me to becasue that means you lose"

[23:53] "after ive selected a target your negation window is missed"
[23:55] "since you are losing you make up things to win "
[23:59] "wrong"

[24:01] "i asked my mommy"
[24:02] "and your not 13"
[24:05] "sje confirmed"
[24:07] "stop it"
[24:13] "we'll wait for a judge"

[24:18] "k"

This is not enough for a ban.


What was enough though was the fact that that judge determined that you stalled since you were in a losing position, and that all the opponent had to do was play Last Turn, in combination with their Jowgen, to win, as the other judge in this thread explained.

Also judges cant patronise players or assume the player knows everything.


They do assume that you know at least some things though, like how Mystical Space Typhoon's targeting works, especially since you stated on your profile that you placed well in multiple previous yugioh locals and regionals, which would indicate that you're already experience with the game and basic rulings. https://imgur.com/cD1YzxW

No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would over his monster lol.


At first I actually thought this would've work, but after looking at Last Turn's ruling page, I'm afraid it wouldn't have. It specifically says, and I quote:

"Last Turn" is not a card that Special Summons a monster when it resolves. Therefore you can activate "Last Turn" even while "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is face-up on the field. If the player activating "Last Turn" controls "Jowgen the Spiritualist" and selects it as the monster to keep, the opponent cannot Special Summon for "Last Turn", and there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase.
The special Battle Phase for "Last Turn" happens right after the monster is Special Summoned. It is in addition to the normal Battle Phase and does not disrupt the normal order of the turn. For example, if "Last Turn" is activated during the Draw Phase, resolves the effect, Special Summon, initiate the special Battle Phase, then continue with the Draw Phase. The turn player can have a normal Battle Phase later in the turn.
The special Battle Phase is treated like a standard Battle Phase in every other way, with a Start Step, Battle Step, Damage Step, and End Step. Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle.


Look at that last part there. "Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle".
This means that you wouldn't be able to search a monster with Sangan's graveyard effect, normal summon that searched monster, then use that normal summoned monster to "over his monster". This means that if you don't special summon any monster with Last Turn's effect, you don't "over" anything, meaning Jowgen remains on the field during the end phase, meaning you would certainly lose.

The judge determined that since this would've clearly happened, and that since you were delaying the inevitable, you were maliciously stalling. Judges can determine that you're maliciously stalling when it's clear you're going to lose and you delay it for no good reason.

itsmetristan wrote:
Ah, I see. That detail was probably missed then. I didn't notice it either. Did you submit a report already?


No, itsmetristan. He would not have been able to search a monster with Sangan's effect, normal summon it, and use any normal summoned monster to beat over the Jowgen. The ruling page I linked explicitly stated that only the monster selected by Last Turn's effect and the monster special summoned by Last Turn's effect (if any is special summoned) can battle.


Yes he can do that. That rule regarding last turn only applies to the additional, "special" battle phase last turn creates. You can still have your normal battle phase and attack over Jowgen then with the monster added with Sangan. Also, this special battle phase doesn't occur when Jowgen is applying.



Thank you, finally some justice.

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Post #270 by Christen57 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:55 pm

SHIFTY786 wrote:there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase


Yes there will be a special battle phase. Look at the ruling page again, where it says:

"Last Turn" is a very special Trap Card with very special and unusual rules. The most important thing to understand about "Last Turn" is that not all of its effects are applied when the Trap Card resolves. When "Last Turn" (the Trap Card itself) resolves, the activating player selects 1 monster on their side of the field, and all other cards on the field and in both players’ hands are sent to the Graveyard. That is all that happens when "Last Turn" resolves. After that, the turn player Special Summons 1 monster from their Deck. After that, a special Battle Phase occurs. Then, during the End Phase, the victory check of "Last Turn" is applied. "Last Turn" sets up several effects that resolve later in the turn long after the Trap Card itself has resolved.

itsmetristan wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:
I never claimed I never knew about targeting.


You may not have "claimed" you never knew about targeting, but you did show it.

[16:34] Activated "Mystical Space Typhoon" from hand (5/6) to S-3
[16:35] Activated Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:40] Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:45] "are you in M1 or SP"

[16:50] "sp"
[16:54] "okay sure "
[16:56] "target"

[17:09] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:11] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:14] Signaled OK
[17:20] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:21] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:27] "whats your target?"
[17:50] "not showing on my end"
[17:58] "hello?"

[18:17] Pointed at Set "Last Turn" in S-3
[18:40] "are you trying to get me to commit to Last Turn in SP so you can summon your returned to hand serpent and attack over jowgen for game?"
[18:50] "yes"
[18:52] Viewed GY

[18:54] "yeah"
[18:54] Stopped viewing GY
[18:57] "not my first time"
[19:04] "i got this"
[19:07] Activated Set "Magic Jammer" in S-5
[19:09] Sent "Heavy Storm" from hand (3/3) to GY
[19:10] Sent "Magic Jammer" from S-5 to GY

[19:11] Sent "Mystical Space Typhoon" from S-3 to GY
[19:35] "anything else in SP?"
[19:36] "you cant jammer"
[19:43] "yes i can"
[19:53] "as you asked for target"
[20:05] "excuse me LOL"
[20:09] "i can jammer"

[20:12] "yeah"
[20:15] Called a judge for Ruling
[20:21] "unreal dude"

[20:23] "needs to be done on activation"

Here, it's clear that you thought that Mystical Space Typhoon activates, then the opponent gets the chance to respond, and if they don't/can't respond, you then designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon. This is incorrect. The proper order is that you activate Mystical Space Typhoon, designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon, and then, after both players understand what the target is, that is when your opponent gets the chance to respond if they have an appropriate response.

However, if, for example, you were resolving the effect of Destiny HERO - Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer to destroy 2 cards, then in that case, you wouldn't need to tell your opponent what you're choosing to destroy before they got the chance to respond, since Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer's effects don't target, but since you were activate something that did target (Mystical Space Typhoon), your opponent must know what you're targeting before they decided if/how they wish to respond.

I was misinformed regarding negation. I was told that negation must be done before targeting.


You relied on your... mommy, to give you a ruling on how Mystical Space Typhoon works? A woman who has no understanding of how the game and problem-solving card text works or plays the game competitively herself? You relied on her, over a qualified judge who took the actual judge exam and proved to be worthy of judging and giving rulings, for a ruling issue? Why??

[23:16] "i can negate even if you target my card with your MST"
[23:18] "i used mst"
[23:27] "no u cant"

[23:32] "sure i can"
[23:38] "find a ruling that says i cant"
[23:46] "i think you dont want me to becasue that means you lose"

[23:53] "after ive selected a target your negation window is missed"
[23:55] "since you are losing you make up things to win "
[23:59] "wrong"

[24:01] "i asked my mommy"
[24:02] "and your not 13"
[24:05] "sje confirmed"
[24:07] "stop it"
[24:13] "we'll wait for a judge"

[24:18] "k"

This is not enough for a ban.


What was enough though was the fact that that judge determined that you stalled since you were in a losing position, and that all the opponent had to do was play Last Turn, in combination with their Jowgen, to win, as the other judge in this thread explained.

Also judges cant patronise players or assume the player knows everything.


They do assume that you know at least some things though, like how Mystical Space Typhoon's targeting works, especially since you stated on your profile that you placed well in multiple previous yugioh locals and regionals, which would indicate that you're already experience with the game and basic rulings. https://imgur.com/cD1YzxW

No I had sangan which would search me a monster then I would over his monster lol.


At first I actually thought this would've work, but after looking at Last Turn's ruling page, I'm afraid it wouldn't have. It specifically says, and I quote:

"Last Turn" is not a card that Special Summons a monster when it resolves. Therefore you can activate "Last Turn" even while "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is face-up on the field. If the player activating "Last Turn" controls "Jowgen the Spiritualist" and selects it as the monster to keep, the opponent cannot Special Summon for "Last Turn", and there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase.
The special Battle Phase for "Last Turn" happens right after the monster is Special Summoned. It is in addition to the normal Battle Phase and does not disrupt the normal order of the turn. For example, if "Last Turn" is activated during the Draw Phase, resolves the effect, Special Summon, initiate the special Battle Phase, then continue with the Draw Phase. The turn player can have a normal Battle Phase later in the turn.
The special Battle Phase is treated like a standard Battle Phase in every other way, with a Start Step, Battle Step, Damage Step, and End Step. Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle.


Look at that last part there. "Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle".
This means that you wouldn't be able to search a monster with Sangan's graveyard effect, normal summon that searched monster, then use that normal summoned monster to "over his monster". This means that if you don't special summon any monster with Last Turn's effect, you don't "over" anything, meaning Jowgen remains on the field during the end phase, meaning you would certainly lose.

The judge determined that since this would've clearly happened, and that since you were delaying the inevitable, you were maliciously stalling. Judges can determine that you're maliciously stalling when it's clear you're going to lose and you delay it for no good reason.

itsmetristan wrote:
Ah, I see. That detail was probably missed then. I didn't notice it either. Did you submit a report already?


No, itsmetristan. He would not have been able to search a monster with Sangan's effect, normal summon it, and use any normal summoned monster to beat over the Jowgen. The ruling page I linked explicitly stated that only the monster selected by Last Turn's effect and the monster special summoned by Last Turn's effect (if any is special summoned) can battle.


Yes he can do that. That rule regarding last turn only applies to the additional, "special" battle phase last turn creates. You can still have your normal battle phase and attack over Jowgen then with the monster added with Sangan. Also, this special battle phase doesn't occur when Jowgen is applying.


Oh, damn. Last Turn really is a confusing card. I was sure I had it all figured out based on what the ruling page was saying.

Still, even if Shifty786 could've searched with Sangan's graveyard effect and normal summoned the searched monster after said Sangan was sent to the graveyard with Last Turn's effect, keep in mind that his opponent had a set Solemn Judgment, so the judge in that duel still knew that Shifty786 would've still lost regardless, as the opponent could use the Solemn Judgment to eliminate whatever monster Shifty786 would try to normal summon, sealing Shifty786's fate.

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Post #271 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:10 pm

This would be true however last turn pops the board and hands

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Post #272 by Christen57 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:12 pm

SHIFTY786 wrote:
itsmetristan wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
You may not have "claimed" you never knew about targeting, but you did show it.

[16:34] Activated "Mystical Space Typhoon" from hand (5/6) to S-3
[16:35] Activated Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:40] Set "Wall of Revealing Light" in S-4
[16:45] "are you in M1 or SP"

[16:50] "sp"
[16:54] "okay sure "
[16:56] "target"

[17:09] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:11] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:14] Signaled OK
[17:20] Viewed Opponent's Graveyard
[17:21] Stopped viewing Opponent's Graveyard

[17:27] "whats your target?"
[17:50] "not showing on my end"
[17:58] "hello?"

[18:17] Pointed at Set "Last Turn" in S-3
[18:40] "are you trying to get me to commit to Last Turn in SP so you can summon your returned to hand serpent and attack over jowgen for game?"
[18:50] "yes"
[18:52] Viewed GY

[18:54] "yeah"
[18:54] Stopped viewing GY
[18:57] "not my first time"
[19:04] "i got this"
[19:07] Activated Set "Magic Jammer" in S-5
[19:09] Sent "Heavy Storm" from hand (3/3) to GY
[19:10] Sent "Magic Jammer" from S-5 to GY

[19:11] Sent "Mystical Space Typhoon" from S-3 to GY
[19:35] "anything else in SP?"
[19:36] "you cant jammer"
[19:43] "yes i can"
[19:53] "as you asked for target"
[20:05] "excuse me LOL"
[20:09] "i can jammer"

[20:12] "yeah"
[20:15] Called a judge for Ruling
[20:21] "unreal dude"

[20:23] "needs to be done on activation"

Here, it's clear that you thought that Mystical Space Typhoon activates, then the opponent gets the chance to respond, and if they don't/can't respond, you then designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon. This is incorrect. The proper order is that you activate Mystical Space Typhoon, designate your target with said Mystical Space Typhoon, and then, after both players understand what the target is, that is when your opponent gets the chance to respond if they have an appropriate response.

However, if, for example, you were resolving the effect of Destiny HERO - Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer to destroy 2 cards, then in that case, you wouldn't need to tell your opponent what you're choosing to destroy before they got the chance to respond, since Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer's effects don't target, but since you were activate something that did target (Mystical Space Typhoon), your opponent must know what you're targeting before they decided if/how they wish to respond.



You relied on your... mommy, to give you a ruling on how Mystical Space Typhoon works? A woman who has no understanding of how the game and problem-solving card text works or plays the game competitively herself? You relied on her, over a qualified judge who took the actual judge exam and proved to be worthy of judging and giving rulings, for a ruling issue? Why??

[23:16] "i can negate even if you target my card with your MST"
[23:18] "i used mst"
[23:27] "no u cant"

[23:32] "sure i can"
[23:38] "find a ruling that says i cant"
[23:46] "i think you dont want me to becasue that means you lose"

[23:53] "after ive selected a target your negation window is missed"
[23:55] "since you are losing you make up things to win "
[23:59] "wrong"

[24:01] "i asked my mommy"
[24:02] "and your not 13"
[24:05] "sje confirmed"
[24:07] "stop it"
[24:13] "we'll wait for a judge"

[24:18] "k"



What was enough though was the fact that that judge determined that you stalled since you were in a losing position, and that all the opponent had to do was play Last Turn, in combination with their Jowgen, to win, as the other judge in this thread explained.



They do assume that you know at least some things though, like how Mystical Space Typhoon's targeting works, especially since you stated on your profile that you placed well in multiple previous yugioh locals and regionals, which would indicate that you're already experience with the game and basic rulings. https://imgur.com/cD1YzxW



At first I actually thought this would've work, but after looking at Last Turn's ruling page, I'm afraid it wouldn't have. It specifically says, and I quote:

"Last Turn" is not a card that Special Summons a monster when it resolves. Therefore you can activate "Last Turn" even while "Jowgen the Spiritualist" is face-up on the field. If the player activating "Last Turn" controls "Jowgen the Spiritualist" and selects it as the monster to keep, the opponent cannot Special Summon for "Last Turn", and there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase.
The special Battle Phase for "Last Turn" happens right after the monster is Special Summoned. It is in addition to the normal Battle Phase and does not disrupt the normal order of the turn. For example, if "Last Turn" is activated during the Draw Phase, resolves the effect, Special Summon, initiate the special Battle Phase, then continue with the Draw Phase. The turn player can have a normal Battle Phase later in the turn.
The special Battle Phase is treated like a standard Battle Phase in every other way, with a Start Step, Battle Step, Damage Step, and End Step. Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle.


Look at that last part there. "Only the selected monster and the Special Summoned monster can battle".
This means that you wouldn't be able to search a monster with Sangan's graveyard effect, normal summon that searched monster, then use that normal summoned monster to "over his monster". This means that if you don't special summon any monster with Last Turn's effect, you don't "over" anything, meaning Jowgen remains on the field during the end phase, meaning you would certainly lose.

The judge determined that since this would've clearly happened, and that since you were delaying the inevitable, you were maliciously stalling. Judges can determine that you're maliciously stalling when it's clear you're going to lose and you delay it for no good reason.



No, itsmetristan. He would not have been able to search a monster with Sangan's effect, normal summon it, and use any normal summoned monster to beat over the Jowgen. The ruling page I linked explicitly stated that only the monster selected by Last Turn's effect and the monster special summoned by Last Turn's effect (if any is special summoned) can battle.


Yes he can do that. That rule regarding last turn only applies to the additional, "special" battle phase last turn creates. You can still have your normal battle phase and attack over Jowgen then with the monster added with Sangan. Also, this special battle phase doesn't occur when Jowgen is applying.



Thank you, finally some justice.


Not so fast. You still would've still lost even if you could normal summon to try to attack Jowgen with the normal summoned monster. The opponent had a set Solemn Judgment which they would've use to get rid of whatever you would try to normal summon.

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Post #273 by Christen57 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:15 pm

SHIFTY786 wrote:This would be true however last turn pops the board and hands


But the opponent could first use their Solemn Judgment to stop your normal summon, then use Last Turn, meaning even if you then searched off of Sangan, you wouldn't be able to normal summon afterwards since you already used up your normal summon that turn.

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Post #274 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:16 pm

Christen57 wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:
itsmetristan wrote:
Yes he can do that. That rule regarding last turn only applies to the additional, "special" battle phase last turn creates. You can still have your normal battle phase and attack over Jowgen then with the monster added with Sangan. Also, this special battle phase doesn't occur when Jowgen is applying.



Thank you, finally some justice.


Not so fast. You still would've still lost even if you could normal summon to try to attack Jowgen with the normal summoned monster. The opponent had a set Solemn Judgment which they would've use to get rid of whatever you would try to normal summon.


Last turn pops the field and board?

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Post #275 by itsmetristan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:18 pm

Christen57 wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase


Yes there will be a special battle phase. Look at the ruling page again, where it says:


This special battle phase will NOT occur, because Jowgen is on the field.
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Post #276 by Christen57 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:21 pm

itsmetristan wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
SHIFTY786 wrote:there will be no special Battle Phase. However the victory check is still applied in the End Phase


Yes there will be a special battle phase. Look at the ruling page again, where it says:


This special battle phase will NOT occur, because Jowgen is on the field.


I apologize, but Shifty786 would still end up losing because Last Turn doesn't care if the special battle ends up happening or not, only which player has a monster remaining at the end phase, right?

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Post #277 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:22 pm

Yeah exactly and whatever monster I would have searched would have been more than 200atk points. Lol

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Post #278 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:23 pm

Can we all agree it was a bad call. I just hope this can be rectified in the future.

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Post #279 by SHIFTY786 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:24 pm

I can see there are some very good judges here but also certain judges who have power trips and can push a button just because they can.

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Post #280 by itsmetristan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:27 pm

Christen57 wrote:
itsmetristan wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Yes there will be a special battle phase. Look at the ruling page again, where it says:


This special battle phase will NOT occur, because Jowgen is on the field.


I apologize, but Shifty786 would still end up losing because Last Turn doesn't care if the special battle ends up happening or not, only which player has a monster remaining at the end phase, right?


Well if they searched a monster and attacked over Jowgen, they would deal enough damage to reduce the opponent's LP to 0. The judgment is an interesting point. I can't say for sure if this would have changed the outcome, because they may have used the last turn immediately after the first action in the main phase and not waited for a normal.

I'll be investigating further for the stalling issue. Let's drop the topic here.
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