Cards that could come off the banlist V2

Got some predictions for the next F/L list? You can discuss all about them in here.
Christen57
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Cards that could come off the banlist V2

Post #1 by Christen57 » Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:54 pm

Over 3 years ago I started a discussion on some cards that were on the banlist that I think could come off.

https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=259

Funny enough, most of those cards did end up coming off the banlist and going to unlimited, so I figured now would be a good time to do a second topic on cards I think could come off the banlist, without any erratas or anything like that.

This time I'll be including spells/traps, as well as monsters.

The current banlist at the time of writing this is the July 1, 2021 banlist. https://archive.ph/VJzAa

1. Cyber Jar
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I've seen some people play this card in customs and it's not that bad. Besides, flip effects are extremely slow nowadays with the only current exceptions being https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Shaddoll and Subterrors. Sure it destroys all monsters, but so do cards like Torrential Tribute and Dark Hole, both of which are better than this card, faster than this card, and are unlimited.

2. Danger!? Tsuchinoko?
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I think this is the weakest of the 3 currently-limited "Danger!" monsters, with the other 2 currently-limited "Danger!" monsters being Danger!s Nessie and Jackalope. We already have plenty of level 3s that special summon themselves or other monsters for free anyways. Plus, having this at 3 could give decks like Burning Abyss and Phantom Knights the boost they needs to be somewhat decent again.

3. Dinomight Knight, the True Dracofighter
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The OCG has this unlimited along with all the other True Draco and True King main deck cards except for Master Peace, and True Dracos are doing nothing over there.

4. Dinowrestler Pankratops
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Having this go back to 3 will make it easier dealing with those powerful turn 1 boards that people assemble.

5. Genex Ally Birdman
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This card is just too situational in my opinion and was only really abused in 1 specific but old and inconsistent FTK and nothing more. There are far more legal and consistent 1 card FTKs currently out there.

6. Morphing Jar
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Like Cyber Jar, this card is too slow and situational nowadays and has the potential to benefit the opponent by letting them discard cards with graveyard effects or draw a better hand.

7. Performapal Skullcrobat Joker
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The OCG currently has this at 2 and Astrograph Sorcerer at 1, and Pendulum Magician/Performapal/Odd-Eyes is doing nothing over there. I don't think putting this to 3 will make any of these archetypes broken anymore.

8. Phantom Skyblaster
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This isn't as abusable as any of the other banned/limited token-producers like Scapegoat or Grinder Golem since it requires a normal summon and a bit of setup to get the most valuable out of. The OCG currently has this at 3 and nobody is playing it on a rogue or competitive level.

9. Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon
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Previously, this monster's effect used to just be:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 face-up Dragon-Type monster you control. Once per turn: You can Special Summon 1 Dragon-Type monster from your hand or Graveyard, except "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon".
Until it's effect got errata'd to:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 face-up Dragon monster you control. You can only Special Summon "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon" once per turn this way. During your Main Phase: You can Special Summon 1 Dragon monster from your hand or GY, except "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon". You can only use this effect of "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon" once per turn.
So it can come back to 3 now since nobody is going to be able to abuse more than 1 copy of it anyways due to both it's effects now being hard once per turn.

10. Servant of Endymion
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The OCG has this at 3, as well as both Astrograph Sorcerer and Heavymetalfoes Electrumite at 1 (both of which are currently banned here in the TCG). Yet even with this many copies of these powerful cards at Endymion's disposal, the archetype is doing nothing over there.

11. SPYRAL Quik-Fix
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This, as well as SPYRAL Tough, are the least problematic SPYRAL monsters. This letting you search SPYRAL Gears isn't too bad at all, even without a hard once per turn, with some of the more problematic cards like SPYRAL Master Plan and SPYRAL Resort already hit.

12. Gem-Knight Master Diamond
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No point in keeping this card limited since you can still FTK/loop with just 1 copy. Needs to be either banned or simply unlimited. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwl2lWf2C-c

13. Daigusto Emeral
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This card can come back to 3 now that most of the cards this was being abused too much with like Zoodiac Broadbull, Zoodiac Drident, and Elder Entity Norden, are all banned.

14. Card Destruction
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I find Trickstar Reincarnation, Disturbance Strategy, and Present Card, all 3 of which are currently unlimited, to each be just as good as this card, if not better, mainly because those cards can be used during the opponent's turn, and combined with Droll & Lock Bird to get rid of their hand, with Trickstar Reincarnation being searchable by Trickstar Candina.

15. Draco Face-Off
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The OCG has this at 3 and it's doing nothing, though they do have Luster Pendulum, the Dracoslayer at 1, but still, I highly doubt having both of these at 3 would do anything.

16. Gold Sarcophagus
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No archetype except for Thunder Dragons has been able to really abuse this, and with Thunder Dragons now in check thanks to Colossus getting banned, I think this card can come back to 3.

17. Raigeki
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Having this at 3 shouldn't hurt too much. We already have other board-wipers like Dark Hole, Interrupted Kaiju Slumber, Lightning Storm, and Evenly Matched, all of which are currently at 3. Also most people would rather play Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet over this because those cards help deal with stuff that can negate spells like Naturia Beast, as well as monsters immune to destruction such as Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon, and Dark Ruler No More can't be responded to by other monster effects, making that card overall better at dealing with the big turn 1 boards people put up than Raigeki.

18. Zoodiac Barrage
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With the 2 problematic zoodiac cards, Broadbull and Drident, getting banned while Ratpier remains limited, this card can now come back to 3 without any problems.

19. Wall of Revealing Light
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Not only is this card unlimited in the OCG and doing nothing over there, but plenty of attack-preventing cards already exist that are both unlimited and far better than this card, such as Mystic Mine, Threatening Roar, Gravity Bind, Swords of Revealing Light, Messenger of Peace, and so on.

20. Double Iris Magician
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With the exception of Destiny HERO - Malicious, every card that was semi-limited ended up going to either unlimited or limited, 1 or 2 banlists later, and semi-limited cards always go somewhere else and never need to stay semi-limited.

Here's Futuregamer's list of some other cards that may be able to come off the banlist, some of which could come off if given some kind of errata. https://futuregamer-yugioh.blogspot.com/2021/06/free-banlist.html

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Post #2 by Renji Asuka » Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:46 pm

I won't go through the entire list, but Cyber Jar is something you missed on. It wasn't the effect that destroyed all monster on the field that was OP or the reason for its banning, its the cards that are added to your hand after its effects are going off if you couldn't summon the monster. Not saying it should come back, but realistically I don't see it coming back.

As for Card Destruction, I feel like you're on crack by suggesting that this card can go to 3 for a couple of reasons. 1st, Dark Worlds, Fabled would have a field day with this at 3. Second, you really want to make a really old strategy of deck out to be more powerful? Nah, I'm good bro.
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Post #3 by Christen57 » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:09 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:I won't go through the entire list, but Cyber Jar is something you missed on. It wasn't the effect that destroyed all monster on the field that was OP or the reason for its banning, its the cards that are added to your hand after its effects are going off if you couldn't summon the monster. Not saying it should come back, but realistically I don't see it coming back.

As for Card Destruction, I feel like you're on crack by suggesting that this card can go to 3 for a couple of reasons. 1st, Dark Worlds, Fabled would have a field day with this at 3. Second, you really want to make a really old strategy of deck out to be more powerful? Nah, I'm good bro.


Dark World already has plenty of discarding cards. They're not going to be able to abuse this to the point where they become broken, and Fableds haven't been relevant in over a decade, even with the support of full power Dangers! when Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko were all at 3. I doubt Card Destruction is going to boost them into competitiveness.

Yes Cyber Jar does let you add potentially multiple cards, but it also lets your opponent add potentially multiple cards too, so it has a good chance of backfiring on you, which helps keep it balanced. If it was so that only you added and not the opponent I would agree it's too strong.

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Post #4 by Renji Asuka » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:21 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:I won't go through the entire list, but Cyber Jar is something you missed on. It wasn't the effect that destroyed all monster on the field that was OP or the reason for its banning, its the cards that are added to your hand after its effects are going off if you couldn't summon the monster. Not saying it should come back, but realistically I don't see it coming back.

As for Card Destruction, I feel like you're on crack by suggesting that this card can go to 3 for a couple of reasons. 1st, Dark Worlds, Fabled would have a field day with this at 3. Second, you really want to make a really old strategy of deck out to be more powerful? Nah, I'm good bro.


Dark World already has plenty of discarding cards. They're not going to be able to abuse this to the point where they become broken, and Fableds haven't been relevant in over a decade, even with the support of full power Dangers! when Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko were all at 3. I doubt Card Destruction is going to boost them into competitiveness.

Yes Cyber Jar does let you add potentially multiple cards, but it also lets your opponent add potentially multiple cards too, so it has a good chance of backfiring on you, which helps keep it balanced. If it was so that only you added and not the opponent I would agree it's too strong.

So, you think Dark Worlds won't FTK you consistently with 3 Card Destructions? Me as a Dark World player, I can confirm that putting card Destruction to 3 is too much. Hell even Painful Choice is an FTK in Dark Worlds. (At least from the text on my Painful Choice I have irl, idk if its been errata'd.)
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Post #5 by Christen57 » Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:25 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:I won't go through the entire list, but Cyber Jar is something you missed on. It wasn't the effect that destroyed all monster on the field that was OP or the reason for its banning, its the cards that are added to your hand after its effects are going off if you couldn't summon the monster. Not saying it should come back, but realistically I don't see it coming back.

As for Card Destruction, I feel like you're on crack by suggesting that this card can go to 3 for a couple of reasons. 1st, Dark Worlds, Fabled would have a field day with this at 3. Second, you really want to make a really old strategy of deck out to be more powerful? Nah, I'm good bro.


Dark World already has plenty of discarding cards. They're not going to be able to abuse this to the point where they become broken, and Fableds haven't been relevant in over a decade, even with the support of full power Dangers! when Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko were all at 3. I doubt Card Destruction is going to boost them into competitiveness.

Yes Cyber Jar does let you add potentially multiple cards, but it also lets your opponent add potentially multiple cards too, so it has a good chance of backfiring on you, which helps keep it balanced. If it was so that only you added and not the opponent I would agree it's too strong.

So, you think Dark Worlds won't FTK you consistently with 3 Card Destructions?


Not really because you can still brick and draw the wrong cards often with Dark Worlds, like drawing an opening hand full of Dark World monsters and no "Danger!" monsters or Card Destruction. It's happened to me a lot, and when you're combining Dark Worlds with the "Danger!" engine, it makes your deck even more reliant on luck because not only do you have to draw the right cards but your opponent also has to pick the right cards out of your hand as well with the "Danger!" monsters' effects. The archetype can also lose outright to certain hand traps that are currently played often. These are some of the reasons Dark World isn't doing well competitively, but you're still right that they can FTK with the right cards.

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Post #6 by Renji Asuka » Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:39 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Dark World already has plenty of discarding cards. They're not going to be able to abuse this to the point where they become broken, and Fableds haven't been relevant in over a decade, even with the support of full power Dangers! when Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko were all at 3. I doubt Card Destruction is going to boost them into competitiveness.

Yes Cyber Jar does let you add potentially multiple cards, but it also lets your opponent add potentially multiple cards too, so it has a good chance of backfiring on you, which helps keep it balanced. If it was so that only you added and not the opponent I would agree it's too strong.

So, you think Dark Worlds won't FTK you consistently with 3 Card Destructions?


Not really because you can still brick and draw the wrong cards often with Dark Worlds, like drawing an opening hand full of Dark World monsters and no "Danger!" monsters or Card Destruction. It's happened to me a lot, and when you're combining Dark Worlds with the "Danger!" engine, it makes your deck even more reliant on luck because not only do you have to draw the right cards but your opponent also has to pick the right cards out of your hand as well with the "Danger!" monsters' effects. The archetype can also lose outright to certain hand traps that are currently played often. These are some of the reasons Dark World isn't doing well competitively, but you're still right that they can FTK with the right cards.

I play Dark Worlds irl, mind you it isn't 100% finished, missing some extra deck cards and missing Danger! Bigfoot!, which are expensive as balls. But that's neither here nor there. in my Build, I run to provide full context:

3 Grapha
3 Snoww
3 Beiige
3 Broww
1 Thunderbird
1 Ogopogo
3 Mothman
3 Tour Guide
1 Farfa

3 Gates
3 Dealings
3 Dragged Down
3 Trade In
2 Charge into Dark World
1 Pot of Avarice
1 Terraforming
1 Monster Reborn
1 Raigeki
1 Card Destruction

I won't go into the extra deck as there isn't really a need. But, from my test hands that I have, this build explodes. Its rather consistent with the amount of draw power and search power it has. Very rarely I have bricked, however some hands lead into dead fields where you can't do much. Which is what comes from what you suggested when "Drawing the wrong cards".

Mind you, I'd LOVE to see Card Destruction go to 3, but I can't on good conscious agree to put it to 3, because its too powerful.
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Post #7 by Christen57 » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:51 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:So, you think Dark Worlds won't FTK you consistently with 3 Card Destructions?


Not really because you can still brick and draw the wrong cards often with Dark Worlds, like drawing an opening hand full of Dark World monsters and no "Danger!" monsters or Card Destruction. It's happened to me a lot, and when you're combining Dark Worlds with the "Danger!" engine, it makes your deck even more reliant on luck because not only do you have to draw the right cards but your opponent also has to pick the right cards out of your hand as well with the "Danger!" monsters' effects. The archetype can also lose outright to certain hand traps that are currently played often. These are some of the reasons Dark World isn't doing well competitively, but you're still right that they can FTK with the right cards.

I play Dark Worlds irl, mind you it isn't 100% finished, missing some extra deck cards and missing Danger! Bigfoot!, which are expensive as balls. But that's neither here nor there. in my Build, I run to provide full context:

3 Grapha
3 Snoww
3 Beiige
3 Broww
1 Thunderbird
1 Ogopogo
3 Mothman
3 Tour Guide
1 Farfa

3 Gates
3 Dealings
3 Dragged Down
3 Trade In
2 Charge into Dark World
1 Pot of Avarice
1 Terraforming
1 Monster Reborn
1 Raigeki
1 Card Destruction

I won't go into the extra deck as there isn't really a need. But, from my test hands that I have, this build explodes. Its rather consistent with the amount of draw power and search power it has. Very rarely I have bricked, however some hands lead into dead fields where you can't do much. Which is what comes from what you suggested when "Drawing the wrong cards".

Mind you, I'd LOVE to see Card Destruction go to 3, but I can't on good conscious agree to put it to 3, because its too powerful.


It's still important to consider possible disruptions the opponent may have. Can your deck withstand at least 1 Ash Blossom, Ghost Ogre, Gamma, Impermanence, or anything like that? A mistake many people including myself make is building a deck that can pull off some insane combo but only if the combo isn't interrupted in any way by the opponent.

Obviously you can't prepare for every possible disruption out there, but you should think about maybe the top 1 or 2 most popular ones at least. You also have to think about the risk where your opponent may have no hand traps at the moment, but then you play Dealings or Card Destruction and then they start drawing into hand traps.

Yeah your deck might "explode" but I still see room for improvement. For example, I doubt you need 3 Graphas. It looks like just 2 would be enough. Remember that Grapha has no effect that gives you a draw, search, or special summon upon being discarded, making it not generate you any advantage that other Dark World monsters would have generated.

I don't know what Tour Guide, Farfa, and Raigeki are for. Those aren't "Danger!" monsters or Dark World monsters and they don't seem to help extend your plays or synergize with the rest of your deck. Raigeki looks like it should just go in the side deck for when you're going second.

I'm not sure if 2 Charge Into a Dark World is a good idea. It's a hard once per turn so you wouldn't want to see multiple copies of them or one of them will be useable while the other will be a dead card for the turn. I know you didn't mention an extra deck, but if you're playing link monsters, you could replace 1 of the Charges with World Legacy Succession or something. That way, you'll be able to use 3 different graveyard-revival spells (Monster Reborn, Charge Into a Dark World, and World Legacy Succession) in a single turn.

I would replace the Trade Ins with just more "Danger!"/"Dark World" monsters like Nessie, Tsuchinoko, and Jackalope. Trade In is bit too situational, requiring level 8s and all, and you're only playing 5 level 8 monsters (3 grapha and the 1 Ogopogo and Thunderbird), meaning the vast majority of your deck won't work with Trade In. Even if you add 3 Bigfoots to your deck, Trade In still doesn't look like it will be consistent or helpful enough to be worth running. Why would you want to use Trade In to discard "Danger!" monsters anyway when you could just activate those "Danger!" monster effects and draw cards with those effects themselves, or use Trade In to discard Grapha when you could just use the "Danger!" monsters to discard it?

I'm not sure about Gates. You need to have it on the field and have a specific card both in your graveyard and hand to use. Feels like it requires too much setup just for 1 banish > discard > draw effect.

The way I see it, if you're going to max out on Card Destruction and Dealings, you might as well run more cards that can benefit directly from being discarded by those, such as more "Danger!" or "Dark World" monsters.

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Post #8 by Renji Asuka » Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:03 am

So, I would quote you, but that'd make my post way too long. So I'll not use the quote button and address each points the best I can.

"It's still important to consider possible disruptions the opponent may have. Can your deck withstand at least 1 Ash Blossom, Ghost Ogre, Gamma, Impermanence, or anything like that? A mistake many people including myself make is building a deck that can pull off some insane combo but only if the combo isn't interrupted in any way by the opponent."
So first, Dark Worlds don't care about Ash Blossom, oh did you ash my Dark World Dealings? Well nice job, I have Danger/Dragged Down, or even Trade-In or even another Dark World Dealings. So I can still make plays. The deck also doesn't care about Impermanence for the most part, yes if Imperm was set where I happen to place a spell it could hurt, but the monster negation doesn't bother the deck and if it does, grats you negated Leviair, which is just used to extend plays even further. Ghost Ogre only bothers the field spell, so its a non issue as your monsters activate in the GY typically, now it could kill a Rank 4, but it won't stop that effect (castel in this instance). So you're not playing that against Dark Worlds in general, and if you do, might want to re-evaluate your choices.

As for something I do have to watch out for, that is Droll & Lockbird as that is a instant turn ending card since nearly every card in the deck either searches or draws, while I COULD run Called By The Grave to stop that, when I have to use only 1 card to stop another (specifically 1 card cause of it being limited), probability is not in my favor when my opponent has 3 vs my 1 out. Stuff like Macro and Dimensional Fissure being huge threats, that's where I just have to side in Spell/Trap removal even more so.

"Yeah your deck might "explode" but I still see room for improvement. For example, I doubt you need 3 Graphas. It looks like just 2 would be enough. Remember that Grapha has no effect that gives you a draw, search, or special summon upon being discarded, making it not generate you any advantage that other Dark World monsters would have generated."

My deck is still unfinished, and I do plan on dropping Grapha to 2 when/if I get Bigfoots, as well as making room for Double or Nothing when I get around to getting those.

"I don't know what Tour Guide, Farfa, and Raigeki are for. Those aren't "Danger!" monsters or Dark World monsters and they don't seem to help extend your plays or synergize with the rest of your deck. Raigeki looks like it should just go in the side deck for when you're going second."

Tour Guide is your best Link 2/Rank 3 play or even just Normal Summon in general. I can go into Cherubini which can protect 2 of my monsters it points to, which makes my field more "durable", or to use it just to make Avarice/Emeral more live (just sending 2 more monsters to the GY to activate it). Otherwise Leviair as I do a bit of banishing from Gates, and bringing back stuff like Broww or Snoww that is banished to bounce with a grapha in the GY just to discard them that turn, its pretty good. Or even set up for more rank 4 plays.

Raigeki however is nothing more than just a card to make the deck 40 cards, can only really work with what I have irl, which would probably become something else like Double or Nothing, which I'm still on the fence about because of the insane draw power the deck has.

Farfa is your best Tour Guide target, when it hits the GY, you can banish an opponent's monster. Whether its from Detach from Leviair or sent to the GY for Link Material for Cherubini. Since my deck is designed to go 2nd, I took advantage of the aggression Dark Worlds have and push it even further by using Farfa.

"I'm not sure if 2 Charge Into a Dark World is a good idea. It's a hard once per turn so you wouldn't want to see multiple copies of them or one of them will be useable while the other will be a dead card for the turn. I know you didn't mention an extra deck, but if you're playing link monsters, you could replace 1 of the Charges with World Legacy Succession or something. That way, you'll be able to use 3 different graveyard-revival spells (Monster Reborn, Charge Into a Dark World, and World Legacy Succession) in a single turn."

Charge is still a card I'm messing around with, most of the time, I don't see it, ever. When I do, it let's me go into extra Rank 4 plays or set up for Grapha by sending Grapha to the GY and bringing back say Broww or Snoww just to bounce it to play Grapha to maybe go into a rank 8 play or recycle their effects.

As for World Legacy Succession, I rarely play my 2 Link monsters (Topologic Bomber Dragon and Cherubini, Ebon Angel of the Burning Abyss), that and well I don't own the card. But its really funny watching players play monsters where link markers point and they don't realize Topologic Bomber Dragon's nuke isn't a HOPT. But also combining it with Dingirsu is really interesting though, or if I can play Cherubini then have it point towards Topologic makes for a "cute combo" of constant destruction. But it isn't something I actually ever bank on doing or go out of my way to doing.

"I would replace the Trade Ins with just more "Danger!"/"Dark World" monsters like Nessie, Tsuchinoko, and Jackalope. Trade In is bit too situational, requiring level 8s and all, and you're only playing 5 level 8 monsters (3 grapha and the 1 Ogopogo and Thunderbird), meaning the vast majority of your deck won't work with Trade In. Even if you add 3 Bigfoots to your deck, Trade In still doesn't look like it will be consistent or helpful enough to be worth running. Why would you want to use Trade In to discard "Danger!" monsters anyway when you could just activate those "Danger!" monster effects and draw cards with those effects themselves, or use Trade In to discard Grapha when you could just use the "Danger!" monsters to discard it?"

Now this is really interesting. Simple the Dangers are just a supplemental engine to assist what the deck does already. Nessie is a level 7, so I can't really utilize that for anything at all, can't use it to Xyz or for Trade-In. Tsuchinoko, has that problem of being a level 3, and I already use Tour Guide if I need 2 level 3s on field for Leviair plays, otherwise again can't go into Rank 8 or Rank 4 plays. Jackalope has the same issue.

And again, deck is not complete, if I can get 3 Big Foot, Trade-In becomes a lot better than it is currently. And that card is $12 - $18 a piece, so it won't be any time soon. Trade-In's job is really just to dig for cards that I need, also Discard Bigfoot, and I can pop a card which is great going 2nd, and discarding Thunderbird, I can pop a set card. Ogopogo is however, temporary as there's no real reason to play it, unless I really want to make Pot of Avarice or even Diagusto Emeral live but that's debatable. So its very well suited for going 2nd in just wanting to break your opponent's board. And when they see you discard that Bigfoot, they know they will lose a card, so if they wanted to ash blossom Trade-In, you don't really lose out too much. The only reason I'd send Grapha is just to get it into the GY for a future play.

"I'm not sure about Gates. You need to have it on the field and have a specific card both in your graveyard and hand to use. Feels like it requires too much setup just for 1 banish > discard > draw effect."

The thing about gates is, it becomes less important the bigger your Danger Engine is. Currently with my small Danger Engine, it's fine at 3, but when I up the engine by adding in 3 Bigfoot, it'd drop down to 2 and see how it works from there. It may seem like a lot of set up, but with how much discarding the deck can do, its not really that hard to get live.

"The way I see it, if you're going to max out on Card Destruction and Dealings, you might as well run more cards that can benefit directly from being discarded by those, such as more "Danger!" or "Dark World" monsters."

The problem here is, it really depends on how your extra deck is built. If you play a lot of links, then the bigger Danger! engine you can run effectively, same with the Dark World monsters. I mean Goldd, Sillva, Lucent are great, don't get me wrong, but that'd force me to split up my extra deck even more when its already struggling cause of Links, Rank 4 and Rank 3 monsters. Then yeah you have Ceruli which is "fine" at 1, but only if you play a "pure" build. Otherwise, if you want to run that at a higher number, you'd have to make a dedicated build for it. Gren and Khaki are useless when Grapha can do what they do but better. The vanillas are terrible (Unless for some reason you want to run Rescue Rabbit in Dark Worlds), Bronn, Mad King of Dark World is just too slow.

My build is all about letting the opponent set up, just for me to do my best at breaking their board then winning. On average, I can play 2 Rank 4s, Leviair, and even Dingirsu, in which case by the time I get to this end field I have removed 3 monsters from my xyz, 1 from Grapha, and 1 from Farfa, and I have enough attack points on field to make game. This doesn't mean the deck CAN'T go 1st, Cherubini, and Dingirsu let's me have a more durable field, and I even have Zenmaines to make my opponent think on how to get around my field when I have these tools. I mean I could say I have Number 38 or go into Appollousa but I have neither of these cards, so my going first set up is rather weak.

As for the actual topic, something you may not had realized is, the deck can already "handloop" not effectively but it can (Ceruli into Sillva 2x in 1 turn and your opponent lost 4 cards in hand). If I gained 3 Card Destruction in this deck, that'd make me want to focus on getting Droll into hand as soon as possible through Dark World Dealings or even Dragged Down, which would make it live funnily enough, then go into Card Destruction then Chain Droll (pretty sure it can work that way). And boom no hand for the opponent, then go ahead and set up a play for Abyss Dweller. Which is stupidly easy to do. And this is why I can't under good conscience support 3 Card Destruction. And that isn't getting into potential FTKs when I'm going 2nd.
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Post #9 by Wek » Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:45 am

REDMD could have gone to 3 pre-errata, that they errataed the card is hilarious.
Anyways, you forgot time seal and Yata Garasu, both are unplayable trash in the modern game.
Your description on Wall of Revealing Light needs work. Wall doesn't stop attacks, it lets you pay a bunch of lifepoints. There was never any intention to use the actual effect of Wall, if there's a Battle Phase, you've probably lost the game already. Wall's just an FTK enabler. So if you're still a fan of unlimiting it, I'd get rid of the attack stuff and go over why you don't think the FTK part matters.

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Post #10 by Wek » Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:54 am

Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:I won't go through the entire list, but Cyber Jar is something you missed on. It wasn't the effect that destroyed all monster on the field that was OP or the reason for its banning, its the cards that are added to your hand after its effects are going off if you couldn't summon the monster. Not saying it should come back, but realistically I don't see it coming back.

As for Card Destruction, I feel like you're on crack by suggesting that this card can go to 3 for a couple of reasons. 1st, Dark Worlds, Fabled would have a field day with this at 3. Second, you really want to make a really old strategy of deck out to be more powerful? Nah, I'm good bro.


Dark World already has plenty of discarding cards. They're not going to be able to abuse this to the point where they become broken, and Fableds haven't been relevant in over a decade, even with the support of full power Dangers! when Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko were all at 3. I doubt Card Destruction is going to boost them into competitiveness.

Yes Cyber Jar does let you add potentially multiple cards, but it also lets your opponent add potentially multiple cards too, so it has a good chance of backfiring on you, which helps keep it balanced. If it was so that only you added and not the opponent I would agree it's too strong.

So, you think Dark Worlds won't FTK you consistently with 3 Card Destructions? Me as a Dark World player, I can confirm that putting card Destruction to 3 is too much. Hell even Painful Choice is an FTK in Dark Worlds. (At least from the text on my Painful Choice I have irl, idk if its been errata'd.)


Painful Choice does not discard. Discarding can only be done from the hand, it's outlined in the Rulebook. Painful Choice just has bad card text since it's an old card.

Card destruction is absurd in Dark Worlds, though Dark Worlds are admittedly bad. Seeing Card Destruction come to 3 would not thrill me, though I'm not afraid of Dark Worlds becoming good, even if card destruction would sack some games for some people.

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Post #11 by Wek » Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:59 am

Renji Asuka wrote:So first, Dark Worlds don't care about Ash Blossom, oh did you ash my Dark World Dealings? Well nice job, I have Danger/Dragged Down, or even Trade-In or even another Dark World Dealings. So I can still make plays. The deck also doesn't care about Impermanence for the most part, yes if Imperm was set where I happen to place a spell it could hurt, but the monster negation doesn't bother the deck and if it does, grats you negated Leviair, which is just used to extend plays even further. Ghost Ogre only bothers the field spell, so its a non issue as your monsters activate in the GY typically, now it could kill a Rank 4, but it won't stop that effect (castel in this instance). So you're not playing that against Dark Worlds in general, and if you do, might want to re-evaluate your choices.


Ash Blossom is a pretty mean card for Dark Worlds. You now have the out to anything like card destruction. You can ignore the Dark World part of the deck and wait for anything that provides actual advantage, such as hitting a trade-in, card destruction etc. You don't care about bad cards like Dark World Dealings and if you end up nabbing their only starter, well, oof. Dark Worlds end up bricking again.

Not sure why you'd say something as essential as the extradeck isn't worth posting. Dark Worlds needs something to actually make them a threat, the extradeck would be one source to see that pop up.

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Post #12 by Renji Asuka » Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:56 am

Wek wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Dark World already has plenty of discarding cards. They're not going to be able to abuse this to the point where they become broken, and Fableds haven't been relevant in over a decade, even with the support of full power Dangers! when Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko were all at 3. I doubt Card Destruction is going to boost them into competitiveness.

Yes Cyber Jar does let you add potentially multiple cards, but it also lets your opponent add potentially multiple cards too, so it has a good chance of backfiring on you, which helps keep it balanced. If it was so that only you added and not the opponent I would agree it's too strong.

So, you think Dark Worlds won't FTK you consistently with 3 Card Destructions? Me as a Dark World player, I can confirm that putting card Destruction to 3 is too much. Hell even Painful Choice is an FTK in Dark Worlds. (At least from the text on my Painful Choice I have irl, idk if its been errata'd.)


Painful Choice does not discard. Discarding can only be done from the hand, it's outlined in the Rulebook. Painful Choice just has bad card text since it's an old card.

Card destruction is absurd in Dark Worlds, though Dark Worlds are admittedly bad. Seeing Card Destruction come to 3 would not thrill me, though I'm not afraid of Dark Worlds becoming good, even if card destruction would sack some games for some people.

I'm pretty sure Painful Choice was errata'd anyways, but I just find it funny on how its worded and how that can let Dark Worlds go off. But that's more of a pre PSCT issue than anything.
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Post #13 by Renji Asuka » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:10 am

Wek wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:So first, Dark Worlds don't care about Ash Blossom, oh did you ash my Dark World Dealings? Well nice job, I have Danger/Dragged Down, or even Trade-In or even another Dark World Dealings. So I can still make plays. The deck also doesn't care about Impermanence for the most part, yes if Imperm was set where I happen to place a spell it could hurt, but the monster negation doesn't bother the deck and if it does, grats you negated Leviair, which is just used to extend plays even further. Ghost Ogre only bothers the field spell, so its a non issue as your monsters activate in the GY typically, now it could kill a Rank 4, but it won't stop that effect (castel in this instance). So you're not playing that against Dark Worlds in general, and if you do, might want to re-evaluate your choices.


Ash Blossom is a pretty mean card for Dark Worlds. You now have the out to anything like card destruction. You can ignore the Dark World part of the deck and wait for anything that provides actual advantage, such as hitting a trade-in, card destruction etc. You don't care about bad cards like Dark World Dealings and if you end up nabbing their only starter, well, oof. Dark Worlds end up bricking again.

Not sure why you'd say something as essential as the extradeck isn't worth posting. Dark Worlds needs something to actually make them a threat, the extradeck would be one source to see that pop up.

The extra deck wasn't posted because there is a variety of ways to build the extra deck which is pretty build dependent. That and I didn't want to hear questions like "Why are you playing Full Armored Photon Dragon with no other Galaxy-Eyes Xyz?", its just too much of an incomplete extra deck to really list, and because I haven't settled on a extra deck completely. Especially since I'm missing 2 cards and am thinking of swapping out my 2 links and even Zenmaines and probably Xyz Rebellion. To what, I haven't settled on.

Also as for Ash Blossom, I know my RNG, I never see my Card Destruction...like...at all...After all my draw power I go through, its always on the bottom of my deck lmao. But also, never underestimate your opponent using Ash on a starter card. But I'm still not worried about Ash Blossom if they save it for Card Destruction, in fact I welcome that, because it would force them to play it. But I'd see them more likely to use Ash on Dragged Down more than anything, otherwise they lose it.
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Post #14 by Christen57 » Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:09 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:So, I would quote you, but that'd make my post way too long. So I'll not use the quote button and address each points the best I can.

"It's still important to consider possible disruptions the opponent may have. Can your deck withstand at least 1 Ash Blossom, Ghost Ogre, Gamma, Impermanence, or anything like that? A mistake many people including myself make is building a deck that can pull off some insane combo but only if the combo isn't interrupted in any way by the opponent."
So first, Dark Worlds don't care about Ash Blossom, oh did you ash my Dark World Dealings? Well nice job, I have Danger/Dragged Down, or even Trade-In or even another Dark World Dealings. So I can still make plays. The deck also doesn't care about Impermanence for the most part, yes if Imperm was set where I happen to place a spell it could hurt, but the monster negation doesn't bother the deck and if it does, grats you negated Leviair, which is just used to extend plays even further. Ghost Ogre only bothers the field spell, so its a non issue as your monsters activate in the GY typically, now it could kill a Rank 4, but it won't stop that effect (castel in this instance). So you're not playing that against Dark Worlds in general, and if you do, might want to re-evaluate your choices.

As for something I do have to watch out for, that is Droll & Lockbird as that is a instant turn ending card since nearly every card in the deck either searches or draws, while I COULD run Called By The Grave to stop that, when I have to use only 1 card to stop another (specifically 1 card cause of it being limited), probability is not in my favor when my opponent has 3 vs my 1 out. Stuff like Macro and Dimensional Fissure being huge threats, that's where I just have to side in Spell/Trap removal even more so.

"Yeah your deck might "explode" but I still see room for improvement. For example, I doubt you need 3 Graphas. It looks like just 2 would be enough. Remember that Grapha has no effect that gives you a draw, search, or special summon upon being discarded, making it not generate you any advantage that other Dark World monsters would have generated."

My deck is still unfinished, and I do plan on dropping Grapha to 2 when/if I get Bigfoots, as well as making room for Double or Nothing when I get around to getting those.

"I don't know what Tour Guide, Farfa, and Raigeki are for. Those aren't "Danger!" monsters or Dark World monsters and they don't seem to help extend your plays or synergize with the rest of your deck. Raigeki looks like it should just go in the side deck for when you're going second."

Tour Guide is your best Link 2/Rank 3 play or even just Normal Summon in general. I can go into Cherubini which can protect 2 of my monsters it points to, which makes my field more "durable", or to use it just to make Avarice/Emeral more live (just sending 2 more monsters to the GY to activate it). Otherwise Leviair as I do a bit of banishing from Gates, and bringing back stuff like Broww or Snoww that is banished to bounce with a grapha in the GY just to discard them that turn, its pretty good. Or even set up for more rank 4 plays.

Raigeki however is nothing more than just a card to make the deck 40 cards, can only really work with what I have irl, which would probably become something else like Double or Nothing, which I'm still on the fence about because of the insane draw power the deck has.

Farfa is your best Tour Guide target, when it hits the GY, you can banish an opponent's monster. Whether its from Detach from Leviair or sent to the GY for Link Material for Cherubini. Since my deck is designed to go 2nd, I took advantage of the aggression Dark Worlds have and push it even further by using Farfa.

"I'm not sure if 2 Charge Into a Dark World is a good idea. It's a hard once per turn so you wouldn't want to see multiple copies of them or one of them will be useable while the other will be a dead card for the turn. I know you didn't mention an extra deck, but if you're playing link monsters, you could replace 1 of the Charges with World Legacy Succession or something. That way, you'll be able to use 3 different graveyard-revival spells (Monster Reborn, Charge Into a Dark World, and World Legacy Succession) in a single turn."

Charge is still a card I'm messing around with, most of the time, I don't see it, ever. When I do, it let's me go into extra Rank 4 plays or set up for Grapha by sending Grapha to the GY and bringing back say Broww or Snoww just to bounce it to play Grapha to maybe go into a rank 8 play or recycle their effects.

As for World Legacy Succession, I rarely play my 2 Link monsters (Topologic Bomber Dragon and Cherubini, Ebon Angel of the Burning Abyss), that and well I don't own the card. But its really funny watching players play monsters where link markers point and they don't realize Topologic Bomber Dragon's nuke isn't a HOPT. But also combining it with Dingirsu is really interesting though, or if I can play Cherubini then have it point towards Topologic makes for a "cute combo" of constant destruction. But it isn't something I actually ever bank on doing or go out of my way to doing.

"I would replace the Trade Ins with just more "Danger!"/"Dark World" monsters like Nessie, Tsuchinoko, and Jackalope. Trade In is bit too situational, requiring level 8s and all, and you're only playing 5 level 8 monsters (3 grapha and the 1 Ogopogo and Thunderbird), meaning the vast majority of your deck won't work with Trade In. Even if you add 3 Bigfoots to your deck, Trade In still doesn't look like it will be consistent or helpful enough to be worth running. Why would you want to use Trade In to discard "Danger!" monsters anyway when you could just activate those "Danger!" monster effects and draw cards with those effects themselves, or use Trade In to discard Grapha when you could just use the "Danger!" monsters to discard it?"

Now this is really interesting. Simple the Dangers are just a supplemental engine to assist what the deck does already. Nessie is a level 7, so I can't really utilize that for anything at all, can't use it to Xyz or for Trade-In. Tsuchinoko, has that problem of being a level 3, and I already use Tour Guide if I need 2 level 3s on field for Leviair plays, otherwise again can't go into Rank 8 or Rank 4 plays. Jackalope has the same issue.

And again, deck is not complete, if I can get 3 Big Foot, Trade-In becomes a lot better than it is currently. And that card is $12 - $18 a piece, so it won't be any time soon. Trade-In's job is really just to dig for cards that I need, also Discard Bigfoot, and I can pop a card which is great going 2nd, and discarding Thunderbird, I can pop a set card. Ogopogo is however, temporary as there's no real reason to play it, unless I really want to make Pot of Avarice or even Diagusto Emeral live but that's debatable. So its very well suited for going 2nd in just wanting to break your opponent's board. And when they see you discard that Bigfoot, they know they will lose a card, so if they wanted to ash blossom Trade-In, you don't really lose out too much. The only reason I'd send Grapha is just to get it into the GY for a future play.

"I'm not sure about Gates. You need to have it on the field and have a specific card both in your graveyard and hand to use. Feels like it requires too much setup just for 1 banish > discard > draw effect."

The thing about gates is, it becomes less important the bigger your Danger Engine is. Currently with my small Danger Engine, it's fine at 3, but when I up the engine by adding in 3 Bigfoot, it'd drop down to 2 and see how it works from there. It may seem like a lot of set up, but with how much discarding the deck can do, its not really that hard to get live.

"The way I see it, if you're going to max out on Card Destruction and Dealings, you might as well run more cards that can benefit directly from being discarded by those, such as more "Danger!" or "Dark World" monsters."

The problem here is, it really depends on how your extra deck is built. If you play a lot of links, then the bigger Danger! engine you can run effectively, same with the Dark World monsters. I mean Goldd, Sillva, Lucent are great, don't get me wrong, but that'd force me to split up my extra deck even more when its already struggling cause of Links, Rank 4 and Rank 3 monsters. Then yeah you have Ceruli which is "fine" at 1, but only if you play a "pure" build. Otherwise, if you want to run that at a higher number, you'd have to make a dedicated build for it. Gren and Khaki are useless when Grapha can do what they do but better. The vanillas are terrible (Unless for some reason you want to run Rescue Rabbit in Dark Worlds), Bronn, Mad King of Dark World is just too slow.

My build is all about letting the opponent set up, just for me to do my best at breaking their board then winning. On average, I can play 2 Rank 4s, Leviair, and even Dingirsu, in which case by the time I get to this end field I have removed 3 monsters from my xyz, 1 from Grapha, and 1 from Farfa, and I have enough attack points on field to make game. This doesn't mean the deck CAN'T go 1st, Cherubini, and Dingirsu let's me have a more durable field, and I even have Zenmaines to make my opponent think on how to get around my field when I have these tools. I mean I could say I have Number 38 or go into Appollousa but I have neither of these cards, so my going first set up is rather weak.

As for the actual topic, something you may not had realized is, the deck can already "handloop" not effectively but it can (Ceruli into Sillva 2x in 1 turn and your opponent lost 4 cards in hand). If I gained 3 Card Destruction in this deck, that'd make me want to focus on getting Droll into hand as soon as possible through Dark World Dealings or even Dragged Down, which would make it live funnily enough, then go into Card Destruction then Chain Droll (pretty sure it can work that way). And boom no hand for the opponent, then go ahead and set up a play for Abyss Dweller. Which is stupidly easy to do. And this is why I can't under good conscience support 3 Card Destruction. And that isn't getting into potential FTKs when I'm going 2nd.


I recommend putting what you're responding to in actual quote blocks, like so:

Code: Select all

[quote]Their words[/quote]
Your response


Watch how I do this in my response.

As for something I do have to watch out for, that is Droll & Lockbird as that is a instant turn ending card since nearly every card in the deck either searches or draws, while I COULD run Called By The Grave to stop that, when I have to use only 1 card to stop another (specifically 1 card cause of it being limited), probability is not in my favor when my opponent has 3 vs my 1 out.


One card that might help, and has helped me when I was playing Cyber-Stein FTK, would be Exchange. It is a minus 1 in card advantage, but can let you pick out any opponent's hand trap that they could use to end your turn outright like a Droll & Lock Bird or a Nibiru. I'm not saying you should run this, because a lot of decks can't due to how much it can backfire, but it's something.

Raigeki however is nothing more than just a card to make the deck 40 cards, can only really work with what I have irl, which would probably become something else like Double or Nothing, which I'm still on the fence about because of the insane draw power the deck has.


Maybe replace it with Double Summon then, which can give you an extra normal summon to help extend your plays. Yeah it's technically a minus 1, but so are Dealings, Card Destruction, and Dragged Down, all of which you're already maxing out on. This can be another one of those "good" minus 1s.

As for World Legacy Succession, I rarely play my 2 Link monsters (Topologic Bomber Dragon and Cherubini, Ebon Angel of the Burning Abyss), that and well I don't own the card.


What about Saryuja Skull Dread? That can give you a free draw and a free special summon to extend your plays. Topologic Bomber Dragon seems too situational and risky for a deck like this and doesn't help extend your plays in a deck like this. Also you can use Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko to make that Saryuja. You even mentioned that you play Leviair the Sea Dragon, so Jackalope and Tsuchinoko which are both level 3 would help you in bringing that monster out too.

If I gained 3 Card Destruction in this deck, that'd make me want to focus on getting Droll into hand as soon as possible through Dark World Dealings or even Dragged Down, which would make it live funnily enough, then go into Card Destruction then Chain Droll (pretty sure it can work that way).


You may have to ask a judge about that to confirm, because some people were telling me you couldn't chain Droll to Card Destruction the same way you could chain it to Trickstar Reincarnation, since one of them is a trap and the other is a normal spell.

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I'm pretty sure Painful Choice was errata'd anyways, but I just find it funny on how its worded and how that can let Dark Worlds go off. But that's more of a pre PSCT issue than anything.


Currently, that card hasn't gotten any errata in over a decade, and the erratas it did get were just minor PSCT fixes with no actual changes to how the card functioned. https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Card_Errata:Painful_Choice

Also it was ruled that it doesn't actually trigger the Dark World monster effects. https://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=27734479&postcount=2


Wek wrote:REDMD could have gone to 3 pre-errata, that they errataed the card is hilarious.
Anyways, you forgot time seal and Yata Garasu, both are unplayable trash in the modern game.
Your description on Wall of Revealing Light needs work. Wall doesn't stop attacks, it lets you pay a bunch of lifepoints. There was never any intention to use the actual effect of Wall, if there's a Battle Phase, you've probably lost the game already. Wall's just an FTK enabler. So if you're still a fan of unlimiting it, I'd get rid of the attack stuff and go over why you don't think the FTK part matters.


I agree some cards that got errata'd never needed one. Goyo Guardian for example could have gone to 3 without requiring an earth tuner. Though it looks like Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon was allowing too many loops especially with Rokket/Guardragon/Crusadia decks.

The OCG has Wall of Revealing Light at 3, along with Upstart Goblin and Chicken Game, both of which make it even easier and more consistent to "FTK" with that card, yet nobody is FTKing with that card because you still need to draw Wall of Revealing Light and Blasting the Ruins, specific cards that are unsearchable, making this too inconsistent even with 3 Upstart and 3 Chicken Game. Though they did ban Life Equalizer so maybe that was the actual problem.

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Post #15 by Renji Asuka » Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:32 pm

"One card that might help, and has helped me when I was playing Cyber-Stein FTK, would be Exchange. It is a minus 1 in card advantage, but can let you pick out any opponent's hand trap that they could use to end your turn outright like a Droll & Lock Bird or a Nibiru. I'm not saying you should run this, because a lot of decks can't due to how much it can backfire, but it's something."

That is an interesting idea, can easily set up hand like you would for Dragged Down, but that's more of a side deck thing.

"Maybe replace it with Double Summon then, which can give you an extra normal summon to help extend your plays. Yeah it's technically a minus 1, but so are Dealings, Card Destruction, and Dragged Down, all of which you're already maxing out on. This can be another one of those "good" minus 1s."

Don't have Double Summon, and since you mostly Special Summon in the deck, it doesn't seem worth running. But I wouldn't compare them to stuff like Dealings, Card Destruction, Dragged Down since they offer you a replacement card then whatever you gain off of the Dark World card, which is why those are acceptable above an extra normal summon.

"What about Saryuja Skull Dread? That can give you a free draw and a free special summon to extend your plays. Topologic Bomber Dragon seems too situational and risky for a deck like this and doesn't help extend your plays in a deck like this. Also you can use Nessie, Jackalope, and Tsuchinoko to make that Saryuja. You even mentioned that you play Leviair the Sea Dragon, so Jackalope and Tsuchinoko which are both level 3 would help you in bringing that monster out too."

Don't have the card, and was too expensive at the time I went to a card shop.Like Saryuja is "cute" and all, and I'd get why you'd play it, but for that many materials, I rather bring out say 2 Rank 4s instead or a Rank 8 or whatever I could make at the time to break boards. Going first its "aight", it just falls into the main issue on why I rarely play my links.

"You may have to ask a judge about that to confirm, because some people were telling me you couldn't chain Droll to Card Destruction the same way you could chain it to Trickstar Reincarnation, since one of them is a trap and the other is a normal spell."

I had to look at Droll's text since its been awhile since I even seen the card. I remembered how it worked incorrectly. I thought you could just play it after its condition has been fulfilled. Not in direct response into something.
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Post #16 by Wek » Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:16 am

Christen57 wrote:You may have to ask a judge about that to confirm, because some people were telling me you couldn't chain Droll to Card Destruction the same way you could chain it to Trickstar Reincarnation, since one of them is a trap and the other is a normal spell.


You can't. You have to use droll before you can even activate card destruction. If you're using a normal spell it's way too late to droll for a previous add.

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Post #17 by Sound4 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:17 pm

Christen57 wrote:Over 3 years ago I started a discussion on some cards that were on the banlist that I think could come off.

https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=259

Funny enough, most of those cards did end up coming off the banlist and going to unlimited, so I figured now would be a good time to do a second topic on cards I think could come off the banlist, without any erratas or anything like that.

This time I'll be including spells/traps, as well as monsters.

The current banlist at the time of writing this is the July 1, 2021 banlist. https://archive.ph/VJzAa

1. Cyber Jar
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I've seen some people play this card in customs and it's not that bad. Besides, flip effects are extremely slow nowadays with the only current exceptions being https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Shaddoll and Subterrors. Sure it destroys all monsters, but so do cards like Torrential Tribute and Dark Hole, both of which are better than this card, faster than this card, and are unlimited.

2. Danger!? Tsuchinoko?
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I think this is the weakest of the 3 currently-limited "Danger!" monsters, with the other 2 currently-limited "Danger!" monsters being Danger!s Nessie and Jackalope. We already have plenty of level 3s that special summon themselves or other monsters for free anyways. Plus, having this at 3 could give decks like Burning Abyss and Phantom Knights the boost they needs to be somewhat decent again.

3. Dinomight Knight, the True Dracofighter
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The OCG has this unlimited along with all the other True Draco and True King main deck cards except for Master Peace, and True Dracos are doing nothing over there.

4. Dinowrestler Pankratops
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Having this go back to 3 will make it easier dealing with those powerful turn 1 boards that people assemble.

5. Genex Ally Birdman
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This card is just too situational in my opinion and was only really abused in 1 specific but old and inconsistent FTK and nothing more. There are far more legal and consistent 1 card FTKs currently out there.

6. Morphing Jar
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Like Cyber Jar, this card is too slow and situational nowadays and has the potential to benefit the opponent by letting them discard cards with graveyard effects or draw a better hand.

7. Performapal Skullcrobat Joker
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The OCG currently has this at 2 and Astrograph Sorcerer at 1, and Pendulum Magician/Performapal/Odd-Eyes is doing nothing over there. I don't think putting this to 3 will make any of these archetypes broken anymore.

8. Phantom Skyblaster
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This isn't as abusable as any of the other banned/limited token-producers like Scapegoat or Grinder Golem since it requires a normal summon and a bit of setup to get the most valuable out of. The OCG currently has this at 3 and nobody is playing it on a rogue or competitive level.

9. Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon
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Previously, this monster's effect used to just be:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 face-up Dragon-Type monster you control. Once per turn: You can Special Summon 1 Dragon-Type monster from your hand or Graveyard, except "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon".
Until it's effect got errata'd to:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 face-up Dragon monster you control. You can only Special Summon "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon" once per turn this way. During your Main Phase: You can Special Summon 1 Dragon monster from your hand or GY, except "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon". You can only use this effect of "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon" once per turn.
So it can come back to 3 now since nobody is going to be able to abuse more than 1 copy of it anyways due to both it's effects now being hard once per turn.

10. Servant of Endymion
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The OCG has this at 3, as well as both Astrograph Sorcerer and Heavymetalfoes Electrumite at 1 (both of which are currently banned here in the TCG). Yet even with this many copies of these powerful cards at Endymion's disposal, the archetype is doing nothing over there.

11. SPYRAL Quik-Fix
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This, as well as SPYRAL Tough, are the least problematic SPYRAL monsters. This letting you search SPYRAL Gears isn't too bad at all, even without a hard once per turn, with some of the more problematic cards like SPYRAL Master Plan and SPYRAL Resort already hit.

12. Gem-Knight Master Diamond
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No point in keeping this card limited since you can still FTK/loop with just 1 copy. Needs to be either banned or simply unlimited. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwl2lWf2C-c

13. Daigusto Emeral
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This card can come back to 3 now that most of the cards this was being abused too much with like Zoodiac Broadbull, Zoodiac Drident, and Elder Entity Norden, are all banned.

14. Card Destruction
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I find Trickstar Reincarnation, Disturbance Strategy, and Present Card, all 3 of which are currently unlimited, to each be just as good as this card, if not better, mainly because those cards can be used during the opponent's turn, and combined with Droll & Lock Bird to get rid of their hand, with Trickstar Reincarnation being searchable by Trickstar Candina.

15. Draco Face-Off
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The OCG has this at 3 and it's doing nothing, though they do have Luster Pendulum, the Dracoslayer at 1, but still, I highly doubt having both of these at 3 would do anything.

16. Gold Sarcophagus
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No archetype except for Thunder Dragons has been able to really abuse this, and with Thunder Dragons now in check thanks to Colossus getting banned, I think this card can come back to 3.

17. Raigeki
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Having this at 3 shouldn't hurt too much. We already have other board-wipers like Dark Hole, Interrupted Kaiju Slumber, Lightning Storm, and Evenly Matched, all of which are currently at 3. Also most people would rather play Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet over this because those cards help deal with stuff that can negate spells like Naturia Beast, as well as monsters immune to destruction such as Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon, and Dark Ruler No More can't be responded to by other monster effects, making that card overall better at dealing with the big turn 1 boards people put up than Raigeki.

18. Zoodiac Barrage
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With the 2 problematic zoodiac cards, Broadbull and Drident, getting banned while Ratpier remains limited, this card can now come back to 3 without any problems.

19. Wall of Revealing Light
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Not only is this card unlimited in the OCG and doing nothing over there, but plenty of attack-preventing cards already exist that are both unlimited and far better than this card, such as Mystic Mine, Threatening Roar, Gravity Bind, Swords of Revealing Light, Messenger of Peace, and so on.

20. Double Iris Magician
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With the exception of Destiny HERO - Malicious, every card that was semi-limited ended up going to either unlimited or limited, 1 or 2 banlists later, and semi-limited cards always go somewhere else and never need to stay semi-limited.

Here's Futuregamer's list of some other cards that may be able to come off the banlist, some of which could come off if given some kind of errata. https://futuregamer-yugioh.blogspot.com/2021/06/free-banlist.html

A lot of issues with this and missing the point of the banned. Cyber jar is one of the most powerful cards in the game as, when flipped, it can destroy all monsters on the field and cause both duelists to draw five cards. This could allow a player to change the game with this card completely.

Card destruction this absolutely must not come off the ban list. Card destruction can be broken in a lot of decks especially at 3. This can allow even more combos and FTKs. Plus they can also reuse spells and traps from GY.

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Post #18 by Christen57 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:Over 3 years ago I started a discussion on some cards that were on the banlist that I think could come off.

https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=259

Funny enough, most of those cards did end up coming off the banlist and going to unlimited, so I figured now would be a good time to do a second topic on cards I think could come off the banlist, without any erratas or anything like that.

This time I'll be including spells/traps, as well as monsters.

The current banlist at the time of writing this is the July 1, 2021 banlist. https://archive.ph/VJzAa

1. Cyber Jar
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I've seen some people play this card in customs and it's not that bad. Besides, flip effects are extremely slow nowadays with the only current exceptions being https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Shaddoll and Subterrors. Sure it destroys all monsters, but so do cards like Torrential Tribute and Dark Hole, both of which are better than this card, faster than this card, and are unlimited.

2. Danger!? Tsuchinoko?
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I think this is the weakest of the 3 currently-limited "Danger!" monsters, with the other 2 currently-limited "Danger!" monsters being Danger!s Nessie and Jackalope. We already have plenty of level 3s that special summon themselves or other monsters for free anyways. Plus, having this at 3 could give decks like Burning Abyss and Phantom Knights the boost they needs to be somewhat decent again.

3. Dinomight Knight, the True Dracofighter
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The OCG has this unlimited along with all the other True Draco and True King main deck cards except for Master Peace, and True Dracos are doing nothing over there.

4. Dinowrestler Pankratops
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Having this go back to 3 will make it easier dealing with those powerful turn 1 boards that people assemble.

5. Genex Ally Birdman
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This card is just too situational in my opinion and was only really abused in 1 specific but old and inconsistent FTK and nothing more. There are far more legal and consistent 1 card FTKs currently out there.

6. Morphing Jar
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Like Cyber Jar, this card is too slow and situational nowadays and has the potential to benefit the opponent by letting them discard cards with graveyard effects or draw a better hand.

7. Performapal Skullcrobat Joker
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The OCG currently has this at 2 and Astrograph Sorcerer at 1, and Pendulum Magician/Performapal/Odd-Eyes is doing nothing over there. I don't think putting this to 3 will make any of these archetypes broken anymore.

8. Phantom Skyblaster
Image
This isn't as abusable as any of the other banned/limited token-producers like Scapegoat or Grinder Golem since it requires a normal summon and a bit of setup to get the most valuable out of. The OCG currently has this at 3 and nobody is playing it on a rogue or competitive level.

9. Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon
Image
Previously, this monster's effect used to just be:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 face-up Dragon-Type monster you control. Once per turn: You can Special Summon 1 Dragon-Type monster from your hand or Graveyard, except "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon".
Until it's effect got errata'd to:
You can Special Summon this card (from your hand) by banishing 1 face-up Dragon monster you control. You can only Special Summon "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon" once per turn this way. During your Main Phase: You can Special Summon 1 Dragon monster from your hand or GY, except "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon". You can only use this effect of "Red-Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon" once per turn.
So it can come back to 3 now since nobody is going to be able to abuse more than 1 copy of it anyways due to both it's effects now being hard once per turn.

10. Servant of Endymion
Image
The OCG has this at 3, as well as both Astrograph Sorcerer and Heavymetalfoes Electrumite at 1 (both of which are currently banned here in the TCG). Yet even with this many copies of these powerful cards at Endymion's disposal, the archetype is doing nothing over there.

11. SPYRAL Quik-Fix
Image
This, as well as SPYRAL Tough, are the least problematic SPYRAL monsters. This letting you search SPYRAL Gears isn't too bad at all, even without a hard once per turn, with some of the more problematic cards like SPYRAL Master Plan and SPYRAL Resort already hit.

12. Gem-Knight Master Diamond
Image
No point in keeping this card limited since you can still FTK/loop with just 1 copy. Needs to be either banned or simply unlimited. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwl2lWf2C-c

13. Daigusto Emeral
Image
This card can come back to 3 now that most of the cards this was being abused too much with like Zoodiac Broadbull, Zoodiac Drident, and Elder Entity Norden, are all banned.

14. Card Destruction
Image
I find Trickstar Reincarnation, Disturbance Strategy, and Present Card, all 3 of which are currently unlimited, to each be just as good as this card, if not better, mainly because those cards can be used during the opponent's turn, and combined with Droll & Lock Bird to get rid of their hand, with Trickstar Reincarnation being searchable by Trickstar Candina.

15. Draco Face-Off
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The OCG has this at 3 and it's doing nothing, though they do have Luster Pendulum, the Dracoslayer at 1, but still, I highly doubt having both of these at 3 would do anything.

16. Gold Sarcophagus
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No archetype except for Thunder Dragons has been able to really abuse this, and with Thunder Dragons now in check thanks to Colossus getting banned, I think this card can come back to 3.

17. Raigeki
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Having this at 3 shouldn't hurt too much. We already have other board-wipers like Dark Hole, Interrupted Kaiju Slumber, Lightning Storm, and Evenly Matched, all of which are currently at 3. Also most people would rather play Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet over this because those cards help deal with stuff that can negate spells like Naturia Beast, as well as monsters immune to destruction such as Red-Eyes Dark Dragoon, and Dark Ruler No More can't be responded to by other monster effects, making that card overall better at dealing with the big turn 1 boards people put up than Raigeki.

18. Zoodiac Barrage
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With the 2 problematic zoodiac cards, Broadbull and Drident, getting banned while Ratpier remains limited, this card can now come back to 3 without any problems.

19. Wall of Revealing Light
Image
Not only is this card unlimited in the OCG and doing nothing over there, but plenty of attack-preventing cards already exist that are both unlimited and far better than this card, such as Mystic Mine, Threatening Roar, Gravity Bind, Swords of Revealing Light, Messenger of Peace, and so on.

20. Double Iris Magician
Image
With the exception of Destiny HERO - Malicious, every card that was semi-limited ended up going to either unlimited or limited, 1 or 2 banlists later, and semi-limited cards always go somewhere else and never need to stay semi-limited.

Here's Futuregamer's list of some other cards that may be able to come off the banlist, some of which could come off if given some kind of errata. https://futuregamer-yugioh.blogspot.com/2021/06/free-banlist.html

A lot of issues with this and missing the point of the banned. Cyber jar is one of the most powerful cards in the game as, when flipped, it can destroy all monsters on the field and cause both duelists to draw five cards. This could allow a player to change the game with this card completely.

Card destruction this absolutely must not come off the ban list. Card destruction can be broken in a lot of decks especially at 3. This can allow even more combos and FTKs. Plus they can also reuse spells and traps from GY.


Cyber Jar is still balanced by how slow it is and by the fact that a lot of decks nowadays can easily either recover from having their monsters destroyed or destroy this before it gets flipped. With the exception of Night Assailant, every flip monster currently on the banlist could go to unlimited and it wouldn't do anything.

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Post #19 by Futuregamer » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:53 pm

1)"Cyber Jar": Drawing 5 is the problem, the torrential might as well not even be there. It would definitely be abused, especially since unlike "Morphing" you get to keep the rest of the cards in your hand. I wouldn't use the folks playing banned cards in customs as a measurement. They're not exactly known for their brilliance.
2)My issue with "Tsuki" is that it goes against what the archetype is about. It removed the risk factor of Dangers! (you know... the "danger") and just straight up gives you a special. Otherwise I agree it's not much of a problem, it's just cheap. (though I'm really not in a hurry for PK to get more viable cards).
3)"True Draco" can go off themselves.
4)If "Pankratops" wasn't as generic (if he imposed some kind of archetype lock), sure. Right now he is way too splashable as a strictly upgraded version of "Evilswarm Mandragora", and I really don't like how his tributed destruction effect can be used on the opponent's turn. He was made to support the otherwise extremely weak "Dinowrestlers", with the same mindset as how "Toadally" was made to support the extremely weak "Frogs". He shouldn't have been generic to begin with.
5)"Birdman" could get an HOPT and come out right now. Without an HOPT he is a bit questionable though.
6)Both "Cyber" and "Morphing" are only going to get used by degenerates if we increase their consistency. I still remember the braindead deckouts from "Morphings" back in the day.
7)While he does feel a bit cheap, I agree that "Skullcrobat" could be at 3. His effect triggers on Normal, it's fine if it +es.
8)Going +1 from a normal is fine, but "Skyblaster" can go from +2 to +3, all of which will end up being Link Materials. He is too much for me.
9)Yep, "Red-Eyes" is pretty much good to go.
10)"Servant": Really not a fan of Pendulum effects +ing you.
11)"Quik-Fix" is a searcher with no hopt that has a self-special, he's bloody terrible. "Spyrals" are just designed cheap in general, having way too many searchers for the same types of cards and +es. If it were up to me, "Quik-Fix" would get banned instead.
12)...Hm... You know what? Why not.
13)The issue is that "Daigusto Emerald" can return "Daigusto Emerald" as one of the cards. He allows loops.
14)Big hmmm on "Card Destruction". Maybe pull it off for 3 months and see what happens, I'm sceptical but not certain, it is a -1 after all.
15)It's an E-Teleport +bonus, it's fine where it is.
16)Like with "Card Destruction", I'm sceptical but we could take it off for a few months and see where it goes.
17)Agreed, "Raigeki" can come off (and on the other hand I believe "Harpy's Feather" needs to get banned again).
18)"Barrage" is still a special from deck, and you need to be very careful with those. It should have had some kind of type limitation to make sure it doesn't get splashed into other sh!t.
19)"Wall of Revealing Light": Pretty sure the limit is related to the ability to drastically and with full control lower your LP with no interaction with the opponent, not the attack block.
20)Once again, lets take "Double Iris" off and see what happens. If he searched other stuff he would be dangerous, but "Pendulumgraphs" are thankfully relatively weak.

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Post #20 by greg503 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:39 pm

Do you really want to give your opponent a chance to draw Imperm, Droplets, Nibiru, Tactics, etc?
Buy Floowandereeze


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