BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight + Spirit Elimination interactions

[greg503]

Can some judges here agree that these are correct rulings?
1. I activate Spirit Elimination with no cards in the GY, can I Special Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight from my hand?
No, because you must banish at least one monster to Summon it by its own effect. Whether or not Spirit Elimination is applying its effect is irrelevant in this situation.
2. I activate Spirit Elimination with no cards in the GY, can I Special Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight from my hand by banishing all Light or Dark monsters I control?
Yes, because you have the same number of Light and Dark monsters in the GY (0) and BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight does not specify a minimum amount of cards needed in the GY.
3. banishing all Light or Dark trap monsters I control?
Yes, Trap monsters can be banished as a monster.
4. banishing all Light or Dark tokens I control?
Yes, tokens can be banished, and will then immediately cease to exist.
5. do I banish face-down Light or Dark monsters in addition to face-up ones to Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight?
Yes, because you know what Attribute your face-down monsters are.
6. If I Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight by banishing from the field with Spirit Elimination, do I get to use its effect?
Yes, because it does not specify that the monsters had to be banished from the GY.
7. banishing tokens and trap monsters?
Yes, because they were Light/Dark on the field when they were banished.

[Christen57]

Can some judges here agree that these are correct rulings?
1. I activate Spirit Elimination with no cards in the GY, can I Special Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight from my hand?
No, because you must banish at least one monster to Summon it by its own effect. Whether or not Spirit Elimination is applying its effect is irrelevant in this situation.
2. I activate Spirit Elimination with no cards in the GY, can I Special Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight from my hand by banishing all Light or Dark monsters I control?
Yes, because you have the same number of Light and Dark monsters in the GY (0) and BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight does not specify a minimum amount of cards needed in the GY.
3. banishing all Light or Dark trap monsters I control?
Yes, Trap monsters can be banished as a monster.
4. banishing all Light or Dark tokens I control?
Yes, tokens can be banished, and will then immediately cease to exist.
5. do I banish face-down Light or Dark monsters in addition to face-up ones to Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight?
Yes, because you know what Attribute your face-down monsters are.
6. If I Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight by banishing from the field with Spirit Elimination, do I get to use its effect?
Yes, because it does not specify that the monsters had to be banished from the GY.
7. banishing tokens and trap monsters?
Yes, because they were Light/Dark on the field when they were banished.

I'm no judge, but I have years worth of knowledge/experience on how the game works so I will try to answer some of these. The only one I'm not too sure about is number 2, but I can definitely answer the rest.

First, let's see what these cards are that you're referring to.

Spirit Elimination is a Normal Spell Card that says:
When monsters in the Graveyard are removed from play, remove monsters on your side of the field from play as substitutes. This card remains active until the end of the turn that it is activated. The substitutes remain removed from play.


Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Evening Twilight is a Level 8 DARK Warrior Effect Monster with 3000 Attack and 2500 Defense, and it says:
Cannot be Normal Summoned/Set. Must be Special Summoned (from your hand) by banishing all LIGHT monsters or all DARK monsters from your GY, while you have an equal number of each in your GY. While face-up on the field, this card is also LIGHT-Attribute. When this card is Special Summoned: You can activate the appropriate effect, based on the Attribute of the monsters banished for the Special Summon. You cannot conduct your Battle Phase the turn you activate this effect.
● LIGHT: Target 1 monster on the field; banish it.
● DARK: Banish 1 random card from your opponent's hand face-down, until your opponent's End Phase.


Now we can address your questions one by one.

1. I activate Spirit Elimination with no cards in the GY, can I Special Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight from my hand?
No, because you must banish at least one monster to Summon it by its own effect. Whether or not Spirit Elimination is applying its effect is irrelevant in this situation.

Correct. At least 1 monster has to be banished. Whenever a card says you have to "banish all" of something to do something, you must banish at least 1 of that thing, unless it says something like (min. 2) or (min. 3) or whatever. In that case, you banish at least that many when you banish all.

3. banishing all Light or Dark trap monsters I control?
Yes, Trap monsters can be banished as a monster.

This is also correct.

4. banishing all Light or Dark tokens I control?
Yes, tokens can be banished, and will then immediately cease to exist.

The yugioh fandom website states that:

1. Token Monsters can be used to pay costs, as long as the cost does not specify a destination.
2. Token Monsters can be Tributed for Tribute or Ritual Summon, or for the Special Summon of cards like "Destiny HERO - Plasma".
3. They cannot be sent to the Graveyard as a cost (such as for the Special Summon of "Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler").
4. Banishing does not specify a destination, so a Token can be banished for a cost (such as for the Special Summon of "Unibird").

So yes, tokens can be banished as costs. Source: https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Monster_Token

5. do I banish face-down Light or Dark monsters in addition to face-up ones to Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight?
Yes, because you know what Attribute your face-down monsters are.

Actually, no you can't because face-down monsters on the field are considered to have no stats while they are face-down. In other words, while they are face-down, they are considered to have no name, no level or rank, no attack or defense value, no type, no effect, and definitely no attribute, so you cannot banish them for the special summon of Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Evening Twilight since it requires monsters with specific attributes.

It doesn't matter if "you know what Attribute your face-down monsters are". They are still considered to have no attribute while face-down.

If it didn't require specific attributes, and it just said you could banish any monster regardless of it's attribute, then you could banish your face-down monster(s), but it doesn't, so you can't.

The only exception to this I can think of would be something like a fusion or ritual summon. For example, you could still banish face-down materials you control for the special summon of ABC Dragon Buster via contact fusion, but you can't do this with Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Evening Twilight. Source: https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Forum:Contact_Fusion_Vs._Book_of_moon%3F

You can also still use your face-down monsters for ritual summons too, as long as they meet the requirements for the ritual summon, such as having the correct levels or other stats they need to have for the ritual summon. The yugioh fandom says that:
Face-down monsters can be Tributed for a Ritual Summon, unless the card text specifies otherwise (such as "Forbidden Arts of the Gishki"). If a face-down monster has an effect that allows it to be used as the entire monster requirement for the Ritual Summon, such as "Ritual Raven", that effect can be applied if it is Tributed for the Ritual Summon of an appropriate monster. If the player can Tribute an opponent's face-down monster due to a card effect (such as "Soul Exchange"), it cannot be used for a Ritual Summon because its Level is unknown.
Source: https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Ritual_Summon

6. If I Summon BLS Envoy of the Evening Twilight by banishing from the field with Spirit Elimination, do I get to use its effect?
Yes, because it does not specify that the monsters had to be banished from the GY.

Correct.

7. banishing tokens and trap monsters?
Yes, because they were Light/Dark on the field when they were banished.

This is the same question as numbers 3 and 4. Yes, you can banish trap monsters and tokens, as long as they are still the correct attribute(s).

If someone would answer/confirm question number 2, that would be great.

[Claudio05]

I'm not a judge either, but I think that number 2 is wrong, because the card says "Must be Special Summoned (from your hand) by banishing all LIGHT monsters or all DARK monsters from your GY, while you have an equal number of each in your GY.". This means that you must attempt to banish monsters in your GY in order to summon this card. Spirit elimination only works if you actually attempt to banish 1 or more monsters, but you cannot attempt to banish a card you don't have in your GY, therefore the card shouldn't be able to let you use monsters you control, since you cannot attempt to banish 0 monsters. To make it more simple: substitute means that instead of banishing a specific card, you use another one. This means that the substitute must "change position" with the card in question. It cannot change position with nothing, so it shouldn't be able to be used if there are no cards to banish in the GY.
This is why I believe number 2 is wrong, but I'm no judge and there are weird rulings for very old cards because of their text so I'm not 100% sure.

[mevakama]

Through my 5 minutes of testing on EDOPro, Evening Twilight would not let me summon it unless there were light and darks in the grave, meaning that you must have monsters in the grave regardless. It would then let me choose light or darks, and all light or darks on the field would get banished. So with that said,
1.) Correct, need cards in grave
2.) No, you must have equal in the grave, and zero means you don't have any. It must be able to be summoned properly, then spirit elimination takes over
3.) Trap monsters are monsters, so Yes
4.) Correct, tokens can be banished
5.) As said previously, the game does not recognize face down monsters as having an attribute (think gozen) so they cannot be banished
6.) Correct, BLS only cares that cards were banished, not where they came from
7.) Correct, for the correct reason

[Claudio05]

0 IS equal to 0, I believe the correct reason is that it must attempt to banish at least 1 monster. You cannot attempt to banish nothing to use spirit elimination, since it wouldn't be able to substitute to nothing, and the card itself normally requires to banish at least 1 anyway