Flip monster question

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Hyde
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Flip monster question

Post #1 by Hyde » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:38 am

So if a flip effect monster was flipped face-up by an effect that is chain link 2 or higher and another card within that chain removes the flip monster from the field, would the flip monster effect still activate as it was flipped? or will it not as it is no longer on the field to activate.

For instance, Raigeki break targets flip monster then as chain link 2 Prediction Princess Tarotrei uses effect to flip the targeted monster.

In this case would the flip monster get it's effect? if no could you please explain why?

Thanks in advance

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Post #2 by tzaflidisp » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:23 am

In your scenario the monster will get its effect in a new chain after the current chain resolves unless it is stated otherwise in its text like Aussa the Earth Charmer that needs to be face-up to resolve its effect.
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Full Cowling
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Post #3 by Full Cowling » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:40 pm

To start: Raigeki doesn't target.
It destroys all the monsters you control simultaneously.

As for the flip monster, if you chain Raigeki w/ Prediction Princess the Flip monster's effects will still not be able to activate.

Since ignition effects cannot be activated in the Summon response window and require an open game state.
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Post #4 by chaseer » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:45 pm

Flip effects will activate in a new chain, even if the monster in question has already left the field, unless they specify that the monster must remain on the field in order to activate and resolve the effect.

Refer to Acid Trap Hole versus Flip effects for clarification.

Full Cowling wrote:To start: Raigeki doesn't target.
It destroys all the monsters you control simultaneously.

As for the flip monster, if you chain Raigeki w/ Prediction Princess the Flip monster's effects will still not be able to activate.

Since ignition effects cannot be activated in the Summon response window and require an open game state.


Acid Trap Hole and Ehren says otherwise. If Acid Trap Hole flips open the face-down monster and destroys it if its DEF is 2000 or less, the Flip effect can be activated. If it was not able to be destroyed because it has more than 2000 DEF however, its Flip effect will NOT activate since it will be flipped back face-down.

The same can be said for Ehren. If you attack a face-down monster, the monster will be flipped face-up before Ehren shuffles the monster into the Deck. At this stage, if that monster has a Flip effect, it can be activated.

For this scenario, if Prediction Princess Tarotei is chained to Raigeki, to flip open a face-down Flip monster, when the chain resolves, the Flip monster was already flipped face-up by the time Raigeki begins to resolve. Even if its destroyed, its Flip effect will still activate.
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Hyde
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Post #5 by Hyde » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:10 pm

[quote="Full Cowling"]To start: Raigeki doesn't target.
It destroys all the monsters you control simultaneously.

That is true Raigeki does not target but it was Raigeki break, which does target, that was used as the example not raigeki. I appreciate the response but I do ask that you read the whole post before you try and correct me please.



Furthermore I did recently find out that it was only in North America that the FLIP monster would not be able to activate it's effect if it was flipped by an effect and then removed from the field in the same chain.


And further furthermore when I tried to explain this to someone I was dueling they disagreed and showed me a link that states that this has been made obsolete and North America rulings have changed to fit the rest of the world. At least in this regard. Silly me was tired and exited both link and duel before copying the link so please if anyone knows where to find this ruling online it would be very helpful. I believe the link they showed me was a ygorganization article but not 100% sure.


Thank you all for the replies and help, it is most appreciated.

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Post #6 by chaseer » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:45 pm

Hyde wrote:It destroys all the monsters you control simultaneously.

That is true Raigeki does not target but it was Raigeki break, which does target, that was used as the example not raigeki. I appreciate the response but I do ask that you read the whole post before you try and correct me please.



Furthermore I did recently find out that it was only in North America that the FLIP monster would not be able to activate it's effect if it was flipped by an effect and then removed from the field in the same chain.


And further furthermore when I tried to explain this to someone I was dueling they disagreed and showed me a link that states that this has been made obsolete and North America rulings have changed to fit the rest of the world. At least in this regard. Silly me was tired and exited both link and duel before copying the link so please if anyone knows where to find this ruling online it would be very helpful. I believe the link they showed me was a ygorganization article but not 100% sure.


Thank you all for the replies and help, it is most appreciated.


Flip Effect is one of the exception where it CAN be activated even if the monster in question leaves the field during chain resolution. As said before, if it works for Acid Trap Hole and Ehren vs Flip Monsters, it will definitely work on your scenario.

Note though, Ehren ruling was based on the BKSS ruling.
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Hyde
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Post #7 by Hyde » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:41 pm

chaseer wrote:
Hyde wrote:It destroys all the monsters you control simultaneously.

That is true Raigeki does not target but it was Raigeki break, which does target, that was used as the example not raigeki. I appreciate the response but I do ask that you read the whole post before you try and correct me please.



Furthermore I did recently find out that it was only in North America that the FLIP monster would not be able to activate it's effect if it was flipped by an effect and then removed from the field in the same chain.


And further furthermore when I tried to explain this to someone I was dueling they disagreed and showed me a link that states that this has been made obsolete and North America rulings have changed to fit the rest of the world. At least in this regard. Silly me was tired and exited both link and duel before copying the link so please if anyone knows where to find this ruling online it would be very helpful. I believe the link they showed me was a ygorganization article but not 100% sure.


Thank you all for the replies and help, it is most appreciated.


Flip Effect is one of the exception where it CAN be activated even if the monster in question leaves the field during chain resolution. As said before, if it works for Acid Trap Hole and Ehren vs Flip Monsters, it will definitely work on your scenario.

Note though, Ehren ruling was based on the BKSS ruling.





yes but this was not so in North America. It was ruled as not being able to be activated. Now however, North America now follows the rest of the world in that the flip monster gets its effects even when removed from the field. Not sure when that changed. That is all I was saying, so if anyone had a link to an article that stated this was not so in North America any longer then that would be awesome.

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Post #8 by Kara Kalinowski » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:24 pm

As far as I am aware the trigger effect location thing is ruled as Europe/OCG rules it, where the location doesn't matter unless it's a private location. So if CL1 returned the flip monster to the hand or deck and CL2 flips it, it shouldn't activate. Ehren has an outdated ruling and was being ruled on DN to not activate, so it should still be the same here.

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Post #9 by Shugunou » Sun May 10, 2020 1:39 pm

Raigeki is spell speed 1 and doesn't target. However, let's pretend you had a card that was a quickplay spell that said "target 1 monster on the field; destroy it." as an example. Say a spell speed 2 card targets a set flip monster as chain link 2 and you played this example quickplay to it targeting the flip monster as chain link 1. Chain link 2 resolves flipping the monster, then chain link 1 resolves destroying it. Now the game remembers that the monster was flipped even though its not on the field. That flip effect now activates as chain link 1. Now lets say it had an effect that activated when it was destroyed as well. The effect on destruction activates as chain link 2 of the new chain.

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Post #10 by Wyvern676 » Sun May 10, 2020 5:08 pm

Shugunou wrote:Raigeki is spell speed 1 and doesn't target. However, let's pretend you had a card that was a quickplay spell that said "target 1 monster on the field; destroy it." as an example. Say a spell speed 2 card targets a set flip monster as chain link 2 and you played this example quickplay to it targeting the flip monster as chain link 1. Chain link 2 resolves flipping the monster, then chain link 1 resolves destroying it. Now the game remembers that the monster was flipped even though its not on the field. That flip effect now activates as chain link 1. Now lets say it had an effect that activated when it was destroyed as well. The effect on destruction activates as chain link 2 of the new chain.


the card in question is raigeki break, not raigeki. Regardless, this is correct

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Post #11 by Genexwrecker » Sun May 10, 2020 6:35 pm

Shugunou wrote:Raigeki is spell speed 1 and doesn't target. However, let's pretend you had a card that was a quickplay spell that said "target 1 monster on the field; destroy it." as an example. Say a spell speed 2 card targets a set flip monster as chain link 2 and you played this example quickplay to it targeting the flip monster as chain link 1. Chain link 2 resolves flipping the monster, then chain link 1 resolves destroying it. Now the game remembers that the monster was flipped even though its not on the field. That flip effect now activates as chain link 1. Now lets say it had an effect that activated when it was destroyed as well. The effect on destruction activates as chain link 2 of the new chain.

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Shugunou
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Post #12 by Shugunou » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:42 am

Ok, I reread and it was Raigeki Break, but ignoring what I said about Raigeki, the info is correct.


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