Why do even our head judges not know this Triple Tactics Talent ruling? Also, what ruling here will Duelingbook follow?

[Christen57]

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=53871695

[11:25] Starlight Glimmer: "Hi everypony!"
[11:31] "hello"
[11:39] "ill explain the situation"
[12:24] "I activated talents, in respone ray was activated, ihe summoned kagari and tried to activate her but i belive it would miss timing"
[13:00] ""if" can miss timing"
[13:10] ""when" cant miss timing"
[13:26] "thats ygo 101"
[13:46] "or maybe its the other way"
[13:47] "would the effect to add engage resolve since i control the monster when chain one would be able to activate"
[13:57] Starlight Glimmer: "It's the other way, but nonetheless "When" vs "If" isn't relevant here."
[14:30] Starlight Glimmer: "So you've both actually stumbled upon the biggest ruling debate of 2022."
[15:10] "is it the natasha vs chenying ruling debate"
[15:19] Starlight Glimmer: "Before I give my answer, I need to give my disclaimer - this is still sort of an ongoing debate so blah blah ask your head judge blah blah"
[15:35] Starlight Glimmer: "And yes it's related to Natasha v Chengying"
[15:48] "im gonna assume you dont choose the mode for TTT until resolution"
[15:56] Starlight Glimmer: "But the current consensus is that the player who did successfully Special Summon the Kagari will be able to activate its effect even if it was taken control of before its effect would activate."

This head judge may have ruled this incorrectly, as this page https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 seems to have established that a monster must be in a player's possession, at that time its trigger effect gets to activate, in order for said player to activate said trigger effect.

In other words, you can't attempt to activate effects of cards currently in your opponent's possession unless some card or effect says they can be activated that way, even if the card(s) in question was in your own possession for a brief moment before switching to that opponent's possession.

Regardless, since even a head judge wasn't sure of this ruling and instead could only tell these players what the current "consensus" was, this may be another one of those that'll have to be officially clarified in the DB Head Judge Q&A.

[greg503]

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=53871695

[11:25] Starlight Glimmer: "Hi everypony!"
[11:31] "hello"
[11:39] "ill explain the situation"
[12:24] "I activated talents, in respone ray was activated, ihe summoned kagari and tried to activate her but i belive it would miss timing"
[13:00] ""if" can miss timing"
[13:10] ""when" cant miss timing"
[13:26] "thats ygo 101"
[13:46] "or maybe its the other way"
[13:47] "would the effect to add engage resolve since i control the monster when chain one would be able to activate"
[13:57] Starlight Glimmer: "It's the other way, but nonetheless "When" vs "If" isn't relevant here."
[14:30] Starlight Glimmer: "So you've both actually stumbled upon the biggest ruling debate of 2022."
[15:10] "is it the natasha vs chenying ruling debate"
[15:19] Starlight Glimmer: "Before I give my answer, I need to give my disclaimer - this is still sort of an ongoing debate so blah blah ask your head judge blah blah"
[15:35] Starlight Glimmer: "And yes it's related to Natasha v Chengying"
[15:48] "im gonna assume you dont choose the mode for TTT until resolution"
[15:56] Starlight Glimmer: "But the current consensus is that the player who did successfully Special Summon the Kagari will be able to activate its effect even if it was taken control of before its effect would activate."

This head judge may have ruled this incorrectly, as this page https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 seems to have established that a monster must be in a player's possession, at that time its trigger effect gets to activate, in order for said player to activate said trigger effect.

In other words, you can't attempt to activate effects of cards currently in your opponent's possession unless some card or effect says they can be activated that way, even if the card(s) in question was in your own possession for a brief moment before switching to that opponent's possession.

Regardless, since even a head judge wasn't sure of this ruling and instead could only tell these players what the current "consensus" was, this may be another one of those that'll have to be officially clarified in the DB Head Judge Q&A.

It's almost like all the judges aren't sure what should happen because this game doesn't have comprehensive rules. But it does have Master Duel, so just test it there.

[Christen57]

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=53871695

[11:25] Starlight Glimmer: "Hi everypony!"
[11:31] "hello"
[11:39] "ill explain the situation"
[12:24] "I activated talents, in respone ray was activated, ihe summoned kagari and tried to activate her but i belive it would miss timing"
[13:00] ""if" can miss timing"
[13:10] ""when" cant miss timing"
[13:26] "thats ygo 101"
[13:46] "or maybe its the other way"
[13:47] "would the effect to add engage resolve since i control the monster when chain one would be able to activate"
[13:57] Starlight Glimmer: "It's the other way, but nonetheless "When" vs "If" isn't relevant here."
[14:30] Starlight Glimmer: "So you've both actually stumbled upon the biggest ruling debate of 2022."
[15:10] "is it the natasha vs chenying ruling debate"
[15:19] Starlight Glimmer: "Before I give my answer, I need to give my disclaimer - this is still sort of an ongoing debate so blah blah ask your head judge blah blah"
[15:35] Starlight Glimmer: "And yes it's related to Natasha v Chengying"
[15:48] "im gonna assume you dont choose the mode for TTT until resolution"
[15:56] Starlight Glimmer: "But the current consensus is that the player who did successfully Special Summon the Kagari will be able to activate its effect even if it was taken control of before its effect would activate."

This head judge may have ruled this incorrectly, as this page https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 seems to have established that a monster must be in a player's possession, at that time its trigger effect gets to activate, in order for said player to activate said trigger effect.

In other words, you can't attempt to activate effects of cards currently in your opponent's possession unless some card or effect says they can be activated that way, even if the card(s) in question was in your own possession for a brief moment before switching to that opponent's possession.

Regardless, since even a head judge wasn't sure of this ruling and instead could only tell these players what the current "consensus" was, this may be another one of those that'll have to be officially clarified in the DB Head Judge Q&A.

It's almost like all the judges aren't sure what should happen because this game doesn't have comprehensive rules. But it does have Master Duel, so just test it there.

Genexwrecker already explained why not to rely on Master Duel for ruling answers.

[Genexwrecker]

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=53871695

[11:25] Starlight Glimmer: "Hi everypony!"
[11:31] "hello"
[11:39] "ill explain the situation"
[12:24] "I activated talents, in respone ray was activated, ihe summoned kagari and tried to activate her but i belive it would miss timing"
[13:00] ""if" can miss timing"
[13:10] ""when" cant miss timing"
[13:26] "thats ygo 101"
[13:46] "or maybe its the other way"
[13:47] "would the effect to add engage resolve since i control the monster when chain one would be able to activate"
[13:57] Starlight Glimmer: "It's the other way, but nonetheless "When" vs "If" isn't relevant here."
[14:30] Starlight Glimmer: "So you've both actually stumbled upon the biggest ruling debate of 2022."
[15:10] "is it the natasha vs chenying ruling debate"
[15:19] Starlight Glimmer: "Before I give my answer, I need to give my disclaimer - this is still sort of an ongoing debate so blah blah ask your head judge blah blah"
[15:35] Starlight Glimmer: "And yes it's related to Natasha v Chengying"
[15:48] "im gonna assume you dont choose the mode for TTT until resolution"
[15:56] Starlight Glimmer: "But the current consensus is that the player who did successfully Special Summon the Kagari will be able to activate its effect even if it was taken control of before its effect would activate."

This head judge may have ruled this incorrectly, as this page https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 seems to have established that a monster must be in a player's possession, at that time its trigger effect gets to activate, in order for said player to activate said trigger effect.

In other words, you can't attempt to activate effects of cards currently in your opponent's possession unless some card or effect says they can be activated that way, even if the card(s) in question was in your own possession for a brief moment before switching to that opponent's possession.

Regardless, since even a head judge wasn't sure of this ruling and instead could only tell these players what the current "consensus" was, this may be another one of those that'll have to be officially clarified in the DB Head Judge Q&A.

the problem you run into is that is just a database translation ruling. This trigger possession thing has gone back and forth in tcg territories for the past year. It really is ask your head judge cause the current stance literally keeps changing.

[Christen57]

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=53871695

[11:25] Starlight Glimmer: "Hi everypony!"
[11:31] "hello"
[11:39] "ill explain the situation"
[12:24] "I activated talents, in respone ray was activated, ihe summoned kagari and tried to activate her but i belive it would miss timing"
[13:00] ""if" can miss timing"
[13:10] ""when" cant miss timing"
[13:26] "thats ygo 101"
[13:46] "or maybe its the other way"
[13:47] "would the effect to add engage resolve since i control the monster when chain one would be able to activate"
[13:57] Starlight Glimmer: "It's the other way, but nonetheless "When" vs "If" isn't relevant here."
[14:30] Starlight Glimmer: "So you've both actually stumbled upon the biggest ruling debate of 2022."
[15:10] "is it the natasha vs chenying ruling debate"
[15:19] Starlight Glimmer: "Before I give my answer, I need to give my disclaimer - this is still sort of an ongoing debate so blah blah ask your head judge blah blah"
[15:35] Starlight Glimmer: "And yes it's related to Natasha v Chengying"
[15:48] "im gonna assume you dont choose the mode for TTT until resolution"
[15:56] Starlight Glimmer: "But the current consensus is that the player who did successfully Special Summon the Kagari will be able to activate its effect even if it was taken control of before its effect would activate."

This head judge may have ruled this incorrectly, as this page https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 seems to have established that a monster must be in a player's possession, at that time its trigger effect gets to activate, in order for said player to activate said trigger effect.

In other words, you can't attempt to activate effects of cards currently in your opponent's possession unless some card or effect says they can be activated that way, even if the card(s) in question was in your own possession for a brief moment before switching to that opponent's possession.

Regardless, since even a head judge wasn't sure of this ruling and instead could only tell these players what the current "consensus" was, this may be another one of those that'll have to be officially clarified in the DB Head Judge Q&A.

the problem you run into is that is just a database translation ruling. This trigger possession thing has gone back and forth in tcg territories for the past year. It really is ask your head judge cause the current stance literally keeps changing.

I see no problem here that I "ran into". db.ygorganization is one of the official sources for rulings, so we should follow it unless you or someone else cites another official ruling source that says otherwise, or until a head judge on this platform explicitly says which ruling duelingbook should follow from now on.

Plus, we already have the issue, that many here have been complaining about, of judge wait times taking too long. So if a head judge officially clarifies on this forum which ruling we'll go by, players won't have to keep waiting for head judges to come give 'em the answer. Then those head judges can focus on other judge calls that require their attention, instead of wasting time on this.

[King_Kai]

https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23902 this should help. When it comes to on summon effects, Whichever player's field the monster was successfully summoned to FIRST will take precedence above everything else. Regardless of where the monster is when it WOULD activate.

[Christen57]

https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23902 this should help. When it comes to on summon effects, Whichever player's field the monster was successfully summoned to FIRST will take precedence above everything else. Regardless of where the monster is when it WOULD activate.

I see. Thank you.

This must mean that, if the monster's trigger effect is optional, whoever's control it shifted to will get to activate its trigger effect, but if said trigger effect is mandatory, whoever's field it got summoned to will get to activate its trigger effect regardless of whoever's control it ended up shifting to beforehand.

Then I don't know why neither that head judge nor Genexwrecker knew this was how trigger effects of cards, that switched control before they could activate, worked.

[Jon-Stark]

Thats because there are 2 rulings. They apply to on summon effect triggers (as stated above) and trigger effects that meet their trigger AFTER shifting control, like Chengying and Natasha . You are simply confusing the two. https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 . Stop doing that. Mandatory and if/when have NOTHING to do with how these are ruled. You have to determine what field the trigger was met on. Not where it is when the activation happens.

[Christen57]

Thats because there are 2 rulings. They apply to on summon effect triggers (as stated above) and trigger effects that meet their trigger AFTER shifting control, like Chengying and Natasha . You are simply confusing the two. https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 . Stop doing that. Mandatory and if/when have NOTHING to do with how these are ruled. You have to determine what field the trigger was met on. Not where it is when the activation happens.

So then... if a card or effect resolves taking control of a monster in the same chain that that monster was summoned, and that monster has an effect that triggers upon said summon; the player whose field it got summoned to gets to activate that trigger effect even if he no longer controls that monster by then.

On the other hand, if a monster's trigger effect requires it to already be on the field at the time its activation condition (that condition being a card being banished, in the case of Chengying) is met, and that activation condition is met in a chain, but control of that monster switches in that same chain right before that trigger effect can activate, then the player who controls that monster afterwards (that player being whoever has taken control of the Chengying, in this case) gets to activate that trigger effect.

I assume this is what you're trying to say? That it has to do with whether the effect is triggering upon the monster's own summon or is requiring that monster to already be on the field beforehand?

[Jon-Stark]

Essentially yes, that is the functional difference

[Kitty Trouble]

Simple, on summon triggers are ruled differently by the database, so the player summoning will get their effect.

[Genexwrecker]

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=53871695

[11:25] Starlight Glimmer: "Hi everypony!"
[11:31] "hello"
[11:39] "ill explain the situation"
[12:24] "I activated talents, in respone ray was activated, ihe summoned kagari and tried to activate her but i belive it would miss timing"
[13:00] ""if" can miss timing"
[13:10] ""when" cant miss timing"
[13:26] "thats ygo 101"
[13:46] "or maybe its the other way"
[13:47] "would the effect to add engage resolve since i control the monster when chain one would be able to activate"
[13:57] Starlight Glimmer: "It's the other way, but nonetheless "When" vs "If" isn't relevant here."
[14:30] Starlight Glimmer: "So you've both actually stumbled upon the biggest ruling debate of 2022."
[15:10] "is it the natasha vs chenying ruling debate"
[15:19] Starlight Glimmer: "Before I give my answer, I need to give my disclaimer - this is still sort of an ongoing debate so blah blah ask your head judge blah blah"
[15:35] Starlight Glimmer: "And yes it's related to Natasha v Chengying"
[15:48] "im gonna assume you dont choose the mode for TTT until resolution"
[15:56] Starlight Glimmer: "But the current consensus is that the player who did successfully Special Summon the Kagari will be able to activate its effect even if it was taken control of before its effect would activate."

This head judge may have ruled this incorrectly, as this page https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 seems to have established that a monster must be in a player's possession, at that time its trigger effect gets to activate, in order for said player to activate said trigger effect.

In other words, you can't attempt to activate effects of cards currently in your opponent's possession unless some card or effect says they can be activated that way, even if the card(s) in question was in your own possession for a brief moment before switching to that opponent's possession.

Regardless, since even a head judge wasn't sure of this ruling and instead could only tell these players what the current "consensus" was, this may be another one of those that'll have to be officially clarified in the DB Head Judge Q&A.

The ruling has changed again. Now no matter the trigger or how it was met or the type of trigger effect the new controller will be the one to activate the effect and not the original controller whos field the trigger was met on.

[Genexwrecker]

and julia just said the tcg just will not follow the new rulings. so you can see why this really is a ask your head judge and why there is no answer. we will be following the most recent database changes and applying them to duelingbook and will disregard how tcg rules it at their events.

[sentinelsean]

to be fair Julia said not to use the ocg database as a source of rullings, and that this one was wrong, but the YCS that was next did not change how the TCG rulled it. but all in all it will be ruled the same in both territories KDE-US just likes to be special at times and liekly didn't want their to be mass confusion a a sudden shift in a ruling so close to so many events.

[King_Kai]

to be fair Julia said not to use the ocg database as a source of rullings, and that this one was wrong, but the YCS that was next did not change how the TCG rulled it. but all in all it will be ruled the same in both territories KDE-US just likes to be special at times and liekly didn't want their to be mass confusion a a sudden shift in a ruling so close to so many events.

The TCG makes bad ruling choices ALL THE TlME. ex if both players control Meltdown, that neither players monsters trigger / that Raye can activate AND RESOLVE summoning any Ace monster of any attribute under Gozen simply because Zeke exists / and several others

PS - Julia is full of shit

[sentinelsean]

to be fair Julia said not to use the ocg database as a source of rullings, and that this one was wrong, but the YCS that was next did not change how the TCG rulled it. but all in all it will be ruled the same in both territories KDE-US just likes to be special at times and liekly didn't want their to be mass confusion a a sudden shift in a ruling so close to so many events.

The TCG makes bad ruling choices ALL THE TlME. ex if both players control Meltdown, that neither players monsters trigger / that Raye can activate AND RESOLVE summoning any Ace monster of any attribute under Gozen simply because Zeke exists / and several others

PS - Julia is full of shit

that raye one was OCG was even in the database for some time, that meltdown one was not a head judge it was a judge so while I agree with that statement that the TCG does bad rulings, you picked two that had nothing to do with the TCG rulings itself. use examples like Babycerasaurus or the difference between the two TCGS(that existed for ages for no reason) like targeting a monster to become equipped but then leaving the field, or even trigger effects needing to be in the correct location (which somehow KDE-US got right and ocg changed to a similar rule set to them). just use better examples they exist.

[King_Kai]

to be fair Julia said not to use the ocg database as a source of rullings, and that this one was wrong, but the YCS that was next did not change how the TCG rulled it. but all in all it will be ruled the same in both territories KDE-US just likes to be special at times and liekly didn't want their to be mass confusion a a sudden shift in a ruling so close to so many events.

The TCG makes bad ruling choices ALL THE TlME. ex if both players control Meltdown, that neither players monsters trigger / that Raye can activate AND RESOLVE summoning any Ace monster of any attribute under Gozen simply because Zeke exists / and several others

PS - Julia is full of shit

that raye one was OCG was even in the database for some time, that meltdown one was not a head judge it was a judge so while I agree with that statement that the TCG does bad rulings, you picked two that had nothing to do with the TCG rulings itself. use examples like Babycerasaurus or the difference between the two TCGS(that existed for ages for no reason) like targeting a monster to become equipped but then leaving the field, or even trigger effects needing to be in the correct location (which somehow KDE-US got right and ocg changed to a similar rule set to them). just use better examples they exist.

You got everything backwards: the Raye WAS a bad TCG ruling until OCG stepped in and made an official rule saying she cant. The fact anyone thought that she should be able to in the first place boggles the mind. 2nd the trigger location rules applied to OCG for YEARS before TCG, and yet most TCG events used those same rules before it finally became official in 2020.

[King_Kai]

TCG always lags behind OCG but always ends up doing the same thing. So this is as official as it gets. As i said, Julia is full of shit. Always has been

[MarshieDemon]

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=53871695

[11:25] Starlight Glimmer: "Hi everypony!"
[11:31] "hello"
[11:39] "ill explain the situation"
[12:24] "I activated talents, in respone ray was activated, ihe summoned kagari and tried to activate her but i belive it would miss timing"
[13:00] ""if" can miss timing"
[13:10] ""when" cant miss timing"
[13:26] "thats ygo 101"
[13:46] "or maybe its the other way"
[13:47] "would the effect to add engage resolve since i control the monster when chain one would be able to activate"
[13:57] Starlight Glimmer: "It's the other way, but nonetheless "When" vs "If" isn't relevant here."
[14:30] Starlight Glimmer: "So you've both actually stumbled upon the biggest ruling debate of 2022."
[15:10] "is it the natasha vs chenying ruling debate"
[15:19] Starlight Glimmer: "Before I give my answer, I need to give my disclaimer - this is still sort of an ongoing debate so blah blah ask your head judge blah blah"
[15:35] Starlight Glimmer: "And yes it's related to Natasha v Chengying"
[15:48] "im gonna assume you dont choose the mode for TTT until resolution"
[15:56] Starlight Glimmer: "But the current consensus is that the player who did successfully Special Summon the Kagari will be able to activate its effect even if it was taken control of before its effect would activate."

This head judge may have ruled this incorrectly, as this page https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#23349 seems to have established that a monster must be in a player's possession, at that time its trigger effect gets to activate, in order for said player to activate said trigger effect.

In other words, you can't attempt to activate effects of cards currently in your opponent's possession unless some card or effect says they can be activated that way, even if the card(s) in question was in your own possession for a brief moment before switching to that opponent's possession.

Regardless, since even a head judge wasn't sure of this ruling and instead could only tell these players what the current "consensus" was, this may be another one of those that'll have to be officially clarified in the DB Head Judge Q&A.

Super happy this was brought up because this was a very controversial ruling. I'm more than thrilled to provide a bit of context on this ruling and why the judge here rules this way.

For pretty much the entire game's existence, it was well established that the player who met the trigger could activate the effect, regardless of whether your opponent took control of the monster (with some rulings saying the effect just couldn't activate at all, depending on certain circumstances). This was thrown into debate once we got the ruling you linked (Cyber Angel Natasha vs Chixiao, note the date of the ruling being fairly recent).

All of a sudden, every territory began questioning how this ruling would fit into the already established precedent. Does this create a new precedent? No one knew. The judging community began sending off mass emails to Konami asking for some sort of clarification, especially since the interactions with I:P Masquerena and Triple Tactics Talent were so common.

Emails received back from Konami were inconsistent. They seemed to suggest there was some distinction with Trigger Effects that activate in response to a monster's Summon. All other Triggers Effects appeared to follow the new Natasha v Chixiao ruling. This was further supported when we got an official ruling with Couple of Aces and Creature Swap. This ruling seemed to suggest that there was some sort of distinction between on-Summon Trigger Effects and all other Triggers Effects.

When this Judge call happened on October 10, that was sort of the position that TCG judges were in. No one was 100% sure about the ruling. We began operating under the assumption that on-Summon Trigger Effects worked differently and that the player who Summoned the monster could activate the effect, even if the opponent took control of it.

Fortunately, within the past 2 weeks, we have gotten a solid answer from Konami. The Couple of Aces ruling was reversed, and a new ruling with S:P Little Night was added. All Trigger Effects function the same now. The player who has control of the monster at the time of activation can activate the effect. Although the TCG has yet to formally adopt this ruling (as announced by Julia Hedberg in a post to Adjudication Conflagration), Dueling Book has decided it will follow these new OCG rulings going forward.

Tl;dr: The judge was correct at the time for an uncertain ruling that now has more solidified support for, and while the TCG refuses to accept these rulings right now, Dueling Book will follow them in all formats nonetheless.

[Jon-Stark]

Ruling has officially been updated in the database and been REVERSED!! https://db.ygorganization.com/qa#24016