Simultaneous Effects problem (Hypothetical)

[TheNewMeta]

You know what keeps me up at night? Because of the rules on cards like Hand Destruction, both players are supposed to discard at the same time. But what if that affects the outcome of the game?

Like let's say my opponent and I both only have 1000 LP left. I have Vanquish Soul Heavy Borger on the field. It's my opponent's turn and they just activated Hand Destruction during the Main Phase. We both have a pretty good idea of what's in each other's hands due to searching through Small World previously or Pot of Prosperity or whatever else you want to say for this hypothetical problem.

Currently, in the game state, I know as a quick effect I can use Heavy Borger to burn my opponent by revealing a Fire and an Earth monster. However, in my hand I have 4 cards, a Vanquish Soul Razen, a Vanquish Soul Caesar, Bystial Magnamhut, and Bystial Druiswurm. If I discard either the Fire or Earth monster, I can no longer burn my opponent so of course, I should discard the Bystial cards, but I know they have a Hanewata in hand due to them adding it via Small World during a previous turn. I also note they have 2 copies of just 1 monster in their GY, Satellarknight Alsahm.

Maybe I wouldn't know it, but for argument's sake let's say their hand has Chaos Dragon Levianeer, Herald of Orange Light, and Hanewata. (This is after activating Hand Destruction of course.)

I therefore can't use Heavy Borger because they would chain Hanewata and stop the damage. But the opportunity can come if I see that they discard that said Hanewata from hand. The issue is that: they also know Hanewata can save them, so they won't discard it. But they too have a card they need to discard to win the game, they have a Chaos Levianeer in hand, and need to summon it via the 'Only Light' effect to Special Summon 1 Satellarknight Alsahm from their GY, thus inflicting 1000 damage to me and winning the game for them. Of course, though, their GY has only 2 copies of Alsahm, meaning they would need to discard both the Herald of Orange Light and Hanewata in their hand in order to win through Alsahm's effect.

So here's the problem, if my opponent discards Hanewata, I can then use Borger to win, but if I discard my Bystial Magnamut and Druiswurm, and they see that, they logically would then choose to not discard Hanewata because they would lose. Likewise, my opponent knows I have Druiswurm in my hand since I revealed it previously through Heavy Borger's draw effect. If they see that I discard both Druiswurm and Magnamut, they may safely think they can use Chaos Levineer's effect without Alsahm getting banished first. But if I keep my Bystials and risk drawing into another Fire/Earth to replace one I discard, then it will depend on whether Hanewata was discarded or not.

My point in all this is that I really think cards should not be simultaneous like this, it could really affect the game in such a way that discarding/drawing/moving cards simultaneously can wildly change the outcome of a game and one could cheat by simply seeing the simultaneous actions first and changing their actions based upon it.

You'd think Konami would have run into this situation before right? Maybe they have and I'm unaware, but I'm curious as to what people think or know on this topic. There's maybe even a chance that this kind of situation has happened before wherein someone has cheated and gotten away with it. Obviously, neither player would be cheating necessarily, but only by technicality.

[greg503]

You know what keeps me up at night? Because of the rules on cards like Hand Destruction, both players are supposed to discard at the same time. But what if that affects the outcome of the game?

Like let's say my opponent and I both only have 1000 LP left. I have Vanquish Soul Heavy Borger on the field. It's my opponent's turn and they just activated Hand Destruction during the Main Phase. We both have a pretty good idea of what's in each other's hands due to searching through Small World previously or Pot of Prosperity or whatever else you want to say for this hypothetical problem.

Currently, in the game state, I know as a quick effect I can use Heavy Borger to burn my opponent by revealing a Fire and an Earth monster. However, in my hand I have 4 cards, a Vanquish Soul Razen, a Vanquish Soul Caesar, Bystial Magnamhut, and Bystial Druiswurm. If I discard either the Fire or Earth monster, I can no longer burn my opponent so of course, I should discard the Bystial cards, but I know they have a Hanewata in hand due to them adding it via Small World during a previous turn. I also note they have 2 copies of just 1 monster in their GY, Satellarknight Alsahm.

Maybe I wouldn't know it, but for argument's sake let's say their hand has Chaos Dragon Levianeer, Herald of Orange Light, and Hanewata. (This is after activating Hand Destruction of course.)

I therefore can't use Heavy Borger because they would chain Hanewata and stop the damage. But the opportunity can come if I see that they discard that said Hanewata from hand. The issue is that: they also know Hanewata can save them, so they won't discard it. But they too have a card they need to discard to win the game, they have a Chaos Levianeer in hand, and need to summon it via the 'Only Light' effect to Special Summon 1 Satellarknight Alsahm from their GY, thus inflicting 1000 damage to me and winning the game for them. Of course, though, their GY has only 2 copies of Alsahm, meaning they would need to discard both the Herald of Orange Light and Hanewata in their hand in order to win through Alsahm's effect.

So here's the problem, if my opponent discards Hanewata, I can then use Borger to win, but if I discard my Bystial Magnamut and Druiswurm, and they see that, they logically would then choose to not discard Hanewata because they would lose. Likewise, my opponent knows I have Druiswurm in my hand since I revealed it previously through Heavy Borger's draw effect. If they see that I discard both Druiswurm and Magnamut, they may safely think they can use Chaos Levineer's effect without Alsahm getting banished first. But if I keep my Bystials and risk drawing into another Fire/Earth to replace one I discard, then it will depend on whether Hanewata was discarded or not.

My point in all this is that I really think cards should not be simultaneous like this, it could really affect the game in such a way that discarding/drawing/moving cards simultaneously can wildly change the outcome of a game and one could cheat by simply seeing the simultaneous actions first and changing their actions based upon it.

You'd think Konami would have run into this situation before right? Maybe they have and I'm unaware, but I'm curious as to what people think or know on this topic. There's maybe even a chance that this kind of situation has happened before wherein someone has cheated and gotten away with it. Obviously, neither player would be cheating necessarily, but only by technicality.

Pretty sure the correct way to resolve Hand Destruction is that both players choose what to discard and then discard without being able to change their mind after seeing what the opponent discarded (and then drawing of course).

[TheNewMeta]

Opening Post.

Pretty sure the correct way to resolve Hand Destruction is that both players choose what to discard and then discard without being able to change their mind after seeing what the opponent discarded (and then drawing of course).

I suppose that's the correct way, absolute decision and revelation at the same time simultaneously with no do-overs or rewinding of the game state. But I just feel like there really ought to be a better way, I think the turn player should have to resolve simultaneous effects first. I feel this way because no one ever actually resolves simultaneous effects this way, the game state is very quickly ruined when one or another player sends their cards first.

If you were a judge in the situation wherein player A discarded first, and therefore player B changed their discard decision, which cost player A the game, who is in the wrong here? Player A or player B? You could argue player A is wrong for not waiting to send cards at the same time and going first, but you could also argue player B is wrong for waiting and changing or not changing their card decision after seeing what player A has in hand and is sending.

This whole thought process came to me when I saw a really fake and stupid video on YouTube of two players on Master Duel who both drew the remaining pieces of Exodia through Hand Destruction, since they both had all 5 pieces, the game resulted in a draw. I thought for sure this was an error on Master Duel's system, but as I looked into it, it's actually correct, both players achieving an alternate win condition simultaneously results in a draw. I dislike draws, as does most people, I just feel like it would be a great preventative measure in the future for draws if we removed these simultaneous effect shenanigans.

[greg503]

Opening Post.

Pretty sure the correct way to resolve Hand Destruction is that both players choose what to discard and then discard without being able to change their mind after seeing what the opponent discarded (and then drawing of course).

I suppose that's the correct way, absolute decision and revelation at the same time simultaneously with no do-overs or rewinding of the game state. But I just feel like there really ought to be a better way, I think the turn player should have to resolve simultaneous effects first. I feel this way because no one ever actually resolves simultaneous effects this way, the game state is very quickly ruined when one or another player sends their cards first.

If you were a judge in the situation wherein player A discarded first, and therefore player B changed their discard decision, which cost player A the game, who is in the wrong here? Player A or player B? You could argue player A is wrong for not waiting to send cards at the same time and going first, but you could also argue player B is wrong for waiting and changing or not changing their card decision after seeing what player A has in hand and is sending.

This whole thought process came to me when I saw a really fake and stupid video on YouTube of two players on Master Duel who both drew the remaining pieces of Exodia through Hand Destruction, since they both had all 5 pieces, the game resulted in a draw. I thought for sure this was an error on Master Duel's system, but as I looked into it, it's actually correct, both players achieving an alternate win condition simultaneously results in a draw. I dislike draws, as does most people, I just feel like it would be a great preventative measure in the future for draws if we removed these simultaneous effect shenanigans.

Sure, just give every simultaneous effect a Ring of Destruction-esque errata, I don't know if any of them besides maybe Card Destruction could see competitive success, but just be glad no one's tried to resolve Parasite Paracide in a tournament...

[eyal282]

Just banish face-down and indicate you're simultaneously discarding, so when the opponent banishes face-down, ask for final confirmation or something and then mill the banished cards to GY.

[Christen57]

In the case of cards like Dark World Dealings, the turn player discards first, then the other player.

Afterwards, the 2 discarded cards are treated as having been discarded at the same time.

I'm certain a judge can confirm this if anyone disagrees with me on this.

[Jon-Stark]

yea cards like this or Dogmatika Maximus etc that reveal/discard cards for both players, turn player is always obligated to go first

[Kitty Trouble]

Page 50, rulebook