Goat format Apprentice Magician Rulings

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november27
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Goat format Apprentice Magician Rulings

Post #1 by november27 » Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:06 pm

There is a "conflict" in this card rules that constantly creates argues during games(mostly with creature swap).

https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Card_Rul ... e_Magician

Here we can read that :
"" If you take control of your opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then your opponent (the original owner) will get to Special Summon. Because “Apprentice Magician” is no longer on your side of the field, it is now in the opponent’s Graveyard (or removed from play area). ""

But here https://www.goatformat.com/rulings1.html it says:

"" Because "Apprentice Magician"'s effect is not a Graveyard effect, the controller of "Apprentice Magician" at the time it is destroyed as a result of battle gets its effect. So if I take control of my opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then I Special Summon, not the original owner. ""

I am pretty sure that the rule at the www.goatformat.com is wrong... i mean by game mechanics apprentice effect should resolve at the owners graveyard because its been destroyed by battle ( or if d.d warrior lady destroy it and remove it resolves through its owner removed cards ).

if apprentice effect resolved at the field then if you have already 5 monsters (including apprentice) its effect shouldn't resolve...

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Post #2 by Christen57 » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:30 pm

november27 wrote:There is a "conflict" in this card rules that constantly creates argues during games(mostly with creature swap).

https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Card_Rul ... e_Magician

Here we can read that :
"" If you take control of your opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then your opponent (the original owner) will get to Special Summon. Because “Apprentice Magician” is no longer on your side of the field, it is now in the opponent’s Graveyard (or removed from play area). ""

But here https://www.goatformat.com/rulings1.html it says:

"" Because "Apprentice Magician"'s effect is not a Graveyard effect, the controller of "Apprentice Magician" at the time it is destroyed as a result of battle gets its effect. So if I take control of my opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then I Special Summon, not the original owner. ""

I am pretty sure that the rule at the www.goatformat.com is wrong... i mean by game mechanics apprentice effect should resolve at the owners graveyard because its been destroyed by battle ( or if d.d warrior lady destroy it and remove it resolves through its owner removed cards ).

if apprentice effect resolved at the field then if you have already 5 monsters (including apprentice) its effect shouldn't resolve...


goatformat.com's ruling is most likely wrong. It wasn't even written by any of duelingbook's staff or judges, and it doesn't come directly from Konami, so it can't be considered official until one of this site's judges or staff says otherwise.

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Post #3 by Wek » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:52 pm

november27 wrote:There is a "conflict" in this card rules that constantly creates argues during games(mostly with creature swap).

https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Card_Rul ... e_Magician

Here we can read that :
"" If you take control of your opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then your opponent (the original owner) will get to Special Summon. Because “Apprentice Magician” is no longer on your side of the field, it is now in the opponent’s Graveyard (or removed from play area). ""

But here https://www.goatformat.com/rulings1.html it says:

"" Because "Apprentice Magician"'s effect is not a Graveyard effect, the controller of "Apprentice Magician" at the time it is destroyed as a result of battle gets its effect. So if I take control of my opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then I Special Summon, not the original owner. ""

I am pretty sure that the rule at the www.goatformat.com is wrong... i mean by game mechanics apprentice effect should resolve at the owners graveyard because its been destroyed by battle ( or if d.d warrior lady destroy it and remove it resolves through its owner removed cards ).

if apprentice effect resolved at the field then if you have already 5 monsters (including apprentice) its effect shouldn't resolve...


It is possible for the mechanics of the game or card to be different between 2005 and 2022. I'm not expecting a format from over 15 years ago to have the citation credibility at the level of the modern game, but after a bit of Googling I encountered https://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=324469 which makes reference to a rulings change to Apprentice Magician post Goat format implying the ruling you see about Apprentice being a field effect was how it used to work (which would include Goat Format's time). https://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php ... stcount=17 having KevinTewart as one of the posters is a nice boost to the credibility. So I find it plausible that both the ruling you see on the modern game and the ruling you see on the Goat Format page are both accurate, just for different eras of the game for that card and its functionality.

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Post #4 by Kitty Trouble » Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:03 pm

Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect. Back in Goat Format, effects that activate "when destroyed by battle" activated while the monster was still on the field, while "destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard' activated after the monster was sent to the Graveyard. The ruling on goatformat.com is the one that will be applied for Goat Format.

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Post #5 by Christen57 » Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:52 am

Kitty Trouble wrote:Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect.


To be clear, this is also the current TCG ruling as well, right? Not just that goat format ruling?

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Post #6 by Kitty Trouble » Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:41 am

Christen57 wrote:
Kitty Trouble wrote:Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect.


To be clear, this is also the current TCG ruling as well, right? Not just that goat format ruling?


No, all destroyed by battle effects activate after the monster is sent to grave now.

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Post #7 by itsmetristan » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:06 am

Kitty Trouble wrote:Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect. Back in Goat Format, effects that activate "when destroyed by battle" activated while the monster was still on the field, while "destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard' activated after the monster was sent to the Graveyard. The ruling on goatformat.com is the one that will be applied for Goat Format.

No, that was exclusive to apprentice magician. Cards like Mystic Tomato's effect activate in the GY. Apprentice was an exception, not the norm.
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Post #8 by itsmetristan » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:09 am

Christen57 wrote:
Kitty Trouble wrote:Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect.


To be clear, this is also the current TCG ruling as well, right? Not just that goat format ruling?

No. Apprentice's ruling was fixed to be the same as the others around the summer of 2006.
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Post #9 by Christen57 » Fri Sep 16, 2022 12:37 pm

itsmetristan wrote:
Kitty Trouble wrote:Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect. Back in Goat Format, effects that activate "when destroyed by battle" activated while the monster was still on the field, while "destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard' activated after the monster was sent to the Graveyard. The ruling on goatformat.com is the one that will be applied for Goat Format.

No, that was exclusive to apprentice magician. Cards like Mystic Tomato's effect activate in the GY. Apprentice was an exception, not the norm.


It it because Mystic Tomato's effect triggers when destroyed by battle "and sent to the GY" while Apprentice Magician just needed to be destroy by battle, period?

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Post #10 by itsmetristan » Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:58 pm

Christen57 wrote:
itsmetristan wrote:
Kitty Trouble wrote:Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect. Back in Goat Format, effects that activate "when destroyed by battle" activated while the monster was still on the field, while "destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard' activated after the monster was sent to the Graveyard. The ruling on goatformat.com is the one that will be applied for Goat Format.

No, that was exclusive to apprentice magician. Cards like Mystic Tomato's effect activate in the GY. Apprentice was an exception, not the norm.


It it because Mystic Tomato's effect triggers when destroyed by battle "and sent to the GY" while Apprentice Magician just needed to be destroy by battle, period?

Well, I can't really say WHY ude ruled apprentice the way they did. It could have been a result of them interpreting the text incorrectly, or it may not have been. It was fixed without a text change though, so it didn't play into them realising they goofed.
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Post #11 by Renji Asuka » Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:52 pm

Christen57 wrote:
itsmetristan wrote:
Kitty Trouble wrote:Apprentice Magician activates on the field, so the current controller gets the effect. Back in Goat Format, effects that activate "when destroyed by battle" activated while the monster was still on the field, while "destroyed by battle and sent to the Graveyard' activated after the monster was sent to the Graveyard. The ruling on goatformat.com is the one that will be applied for Goat Format.

No, that was exclusive to apprentice magician. Cards like Mystic Tomato's effect activate in the GY. Apprentice was an exception, not the norm.


It it because Mystic Tomato's effect triggers when destroyed by battle "and sent to the GY" while Apprentice Magician just needed to be destroy by battle, period?

Pretty sure that was their reasoning.
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Post #12 by Kitty Trouble » Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:35 pm

https://www.goatformat.com/basics.html

Please read goat format rule #10 for reasoning on this. The damage step has evolved several times over the course of the game. In goat format's iteration, things like Apprentice Magician were used After Damage Calculation, today they are used at the end of the damage step.

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Post #13 by itsmetristan » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:27 pm

Kitty Trouble wrote:https://www.goatformat.com/basics.html

Please read goat format rule #10 for reasoning on this. The damage step has evolved several times over the course of the game. In goat format's iteration, things like Apprentice Magician were used After Damage Calculation, today they are used at the end of the damage step.

"when a monster is destroyed by battle" but before that monster is sent to the Graveyard will activate here include the effects of Apprentice Magician, Helping Robo for Combat, Royal Keeper, Nightmare Penguin, D.D. Assailant, and D.D. Warrior Lady".

Notice the examples it uses, and how they specify "but before that monster is sent to the Graveyard". In the next paragraph, it then says
"End of the Damage Step
Monsters destroyed by battle are sent to the Graveyard at the start of this substep. So as you could probably guess, any effects triggered by destruction by battle will activate in this substep and form a Chain if necessary. Examples include the effects of Mystic Tomato, Last Will and Sangan."

Again, notice the examples. You could also check every card in goat with similar text on the goat format individual card rulings pages (other than Apprentice), and they'd specify that they activate in the GY. Apprentice's does not.
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Post #14 by november27 » Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:56 pm

Thanks for your replies and mostly for your searches :)

The conclusion is that the valid rule is this (short answer,the rule from goatformat.com) :

"" Because "Apprentice Magician"'s effect is not a Graveyard effect, the controller of "Apprentice Magician" at the time it is destroyed as a result of battle gets its effect. So if I take control of my opponent's "Apprentice Magician", and it is destroyed as a result of battle, then I Special Summon, not the original owner. ""

So if you give apprentice to your opponent with creature swap He gets to search and NOT the original controller of the apprentice .

The reasoning comes from here :
https://www.goatformat.com/basics.html (scroll down) ---> Goat Format Rule #10: The Damage Step and Its Discontents
(scroll down) --->10A: Damage Substeps and Distinct Timings ----> Substep 5: After Damage Calculation


Substep 5: After Damage Calculation

Monsters are considered "destroyed by battle" at the start of this substep, but they aren't sent to the Graveyard yet. If a Continuous Effect that destroys monsters came into play back in substep 2, those effects will start to apply now (so Berserk Gorilla, etc. will be destroyed). But if a monster with a Continuous Effect was destroyed by battle, its effect will no longer apply in this substep and onwards. Flip Effects, other Trigger Effects that activate when a monster is flipped face-up, and many effects that activate “after damage calculation” activate here and form a Chain if necessary. Additionally, many effects that activate "when a monster is destroyed by battle" but before that monster is sent to the Graveyard will activate here. Some examples of effects that activate here include the effects of Apprentice Magician, Helping Robo for Combat, Royal Keeper, Nightmare Penguin, D.D. Assailant, and D.D. Warrior Lady. Monster effects that negate activations and Counter Trap cards can be activated here.

Personally i don't like or agree with this ruling but that's the valid one for Goat .


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