Judge ruled that if you promise to "scoop" upon seeing that the opponent is running a specific card, you must do so

[Christen57]

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=39685797

This player said "show me the mine and ill scoop" in this duel, meaning he's promising to admit defeat upon seeing the Mystic Mine his opponent was running. However, when that opponent later indeed displayed Mystic Mine, his excuse for not admitting defeat at that point was that it wasn't shown "at that moment" he made the promise.

However, I think the judge should've still given him a game loss for lying because he never said that the Mystic Mine had to be shown at the specific time he asked to see it for him to admit defeat — only that the card had to be shown at some point during that turn or so.

What is duelingbook's rule regarding this? If someone explicitly promises to admit defeat upon seeing you play a certain card, does that mean you have to have the card in question in your hand (or face-down on your field) at that point in time for them to admit defeat, and then if you instead show the card later on that turn they no longer have to admit defeat, or do you get to open up your deck (or extra deck) and bring out the card in question for them to then have to admit defeat? Should this player have received a game loss after seeing the Mystic Mine when he promised earlier that turn to admit defeat upon seeing it?

[Genexwrecker]

At best you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine here. We dont enforce gentleman’s agreements.coder handled that perfectly fine

Also the title is missleading because coder did not rule that.

[Excellion]

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=39685797

This player said "show me the mine and ill scoop" in this duel, meaning he's promising to admit defeat upon seeing the Mystic Mine his opponent was running. However, when that opponent later indeed displayed Mystic Mine, his excuse for not admitting defeat at that point was that it wasn't shown "at that moment" he made the promise.

However, I think the judge should've still given him a game loss for lying because he never said that the Mystic Mine had to be shown at the specific time he asked to see it for him to admit defeat — only that the card had to be shown at some point during that turn or so.

What is duelingbook's rule regarding this? If someone explicitly promises to admit defeat upon seeing you play a certain card, does that mean you have to have the card in question in your hand (or face-down on your field) at that point in time for them to admit defeat, and then if you instead show the card later on that turn they no longer have to admit defeat, or do you get to open up your deck (or extra deck) and bring out the card in question for them to then have to admit defeat? Should this player have received a game loss after seeing the Mystic Mine when he promised earlier that turn to admit defeat upon seeing it?

you are not allowed to ask about what the opponent has in hand or deck, even if they "promise to scoop" because it affects private/public knowlege, thats likely why they were ruled against, not because they promised.
Edit: this also borders on telling your opponent you have a hand trap, when you dont, which is also against the rules.

[Genexwrecker]

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=39685797

This player said "show me the mine and ill scoop" in this duel, meaning he's promising to admit defeat upon seeing the Mystic Mine his opponent was running. However, when that opponent later indeed displayed Mystic Mine, his excuse for not admitting defeat at that point was that it wasn't shown "at that moment" he made the promise.

However, I think the judge should've still given him a game loss for lying because he never said that the Mystic Mine had to be shown at the specific time he asked to see it for him to admit defeat — only that the card had to be shown at some point during that turn or so.

What is duelingbook's rule regarding this? If someone explicitly promises to admit defeat upon seeing you play a certain card, does that mean you have to have the card in question in your hand (or face-down on your field) at that point in time for them to admit defeat, and then if you instead show the card later on that turn they no longer have to admit defeat, or do you get to open up your deck (or extra deck) and bring out the card in question for them to then have to admit defeat? Should this player have received a game loss after seeing the Mystic Mine when he promised earlier that turn to admit defeat upon seeing it?

you are not allowed to ask about what the opponent has in hand or deck, even if they "promise to scoop" because it affects private/public knowlege, thats likely why they were ruled against, not because they promised.
Edit: this also borders on telling your opponent you have a hand trap, when you dont, which is also against the rules.

^yea prettty much this you arent supposed to ask for private knowledge or give it

[Christen57]

At best you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine here. We dont enforce gentleman’s agreements.coder handled that perfectly fine

Also the title is missleading because coder did not rule that.

I apologize if the title is misleading (if it's possible to edit thread titles please let me know as I currently don't know if or how it can be done), but the reason I brought this topic up for clarification was because it's ruled in yugioh that anything you say will, by default, "override" anything you try to "do". This means if you, for example, are in your Main Phase 1 and say "I'm gonna move to end phase now" but instead move to the battle phase, you have to skip that and go straight to the end phase (even if you want to change your mind at that point about wanting to go to end phase) because that's what you originally said you were going to do. The same thing goes for, for example, summoning and setting monsters. If you say "I'm gonna normal set this monster" and you instead normal summon it, you have to put it in face-down defense position since you said you were going to set it, even if you now wish to change your mind about wanting to set it.

This lead me to think that if you explicitly say "I'm gonna scoop once I see [insert card name here]" and then that card is shown, you shouldn't then get to choose to not scoop as you saying you would scoop should override your action of choosing not to scoop, just like how you saying you would move to a specific phase in your turn or set a specific monster overrides you doing something that contradicts that.

Also, when the judge asked "why didn't you scoop after promising to do so," it implied that he was fully expecting that player in question to scoop which implied that he was in fact ruling that you must scoop upon seeing a certain card if that's what you promise. That's why I thought that this is what he was ruling — because of how he was implying it.

^yea prettty much this you arent supposed to ask for private knowledge or give it

But duelingbook allows players to let their opponents know when they have no hand traps. That way, those opponents can do their combos without having to wait for every activation and summon to be approved by both players, and saying "no hand traps" also counts as revealing private knowledge as you're revealing that each card in your hand is something that can't be activated from the hand that turn. What makes asking for a specific card to be shown and promising to surrender when it's shown different?

Also, what do you mean by "you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine"? If it's cheating it must be punished with a game loss or freeze, not overlooked for the game to continue, no?

[Wek]

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=39685797

This player said "show me the mine and ill scoop" in this duel, meaning he's promising to admit defeat upon seeing the Mystic Mine his opponent was running. However, when that opponent later indeed displayed Mystic Mine, his excuse for not admitting defeat at that point was that it wasn't shown "at that moment" he made the promise.

However, I think the judge should've still given him a game loss for lying because he never said that the Mystic Mine had to be shown at the specific time he asked to see it for him to admit defeat — only that the card had to be shown at some point during that turn or so.

What is duelingbook's rule regarding this? If someone explicitly promises to admit defeat upon seeing you play a certain card, does that mean you have to have the card in question in your hand (or face-down on your field) at that point in time for them to admit defeat, and then if you instead show the card later on that turn they no longer have to admit defeat, or do you get to open up your deck (or extra deck) and bring out the card in question for them to then have to admit defeat? Should this player have received a game loss after seeing the Mystic Mine when he promised earlier that turn to admit defeat upon seeing it?

Lying is cheating, and cheating means you get frozen, so if this stuff gets penalized, a game loss would be underselling it.

[Wek]

At best you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine here. We dont enforce gentleman’s agreements.

You mean stuff like
A Duelist tells her opponent “If you show me Honest in your hand, I will forfeit the game”. When the opponent reveals a copy of Honest, she
activates Mind Crush and selects Honest.
or
A Duelist suggests to his opponent that they should choose not to side in Fairy Wind as they go in to Game 2 of their Match, then proceeds to side in Fairy Wind anyways.

to pull from page 11 of https://img.yugioh-card.com/ygo_cms/ygo ... y_V2.1.pdf

I'll just break the link here so it's visible in case the site messes with the link above.
https://img.yugioh-card. com/ygo_cms/ygo/all/uploads/ Official_KDEE_Tournament_Infractions_Penalties_Policy_V2.1.pdf

[Genexwrecker]

At best you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine here. We dont enforce gentleman’s agreements.coder handled that perfectly fine

Also the title is missleading because coder did not rule that.

Also, when the judge asked "why didn't you scoop after promising to do so," it implied that he was fully expecting that player in question to scoop which implied that he was in fact ruling that you must scoop upon seeing a certain card if that's what you promise. That's why I thought that this is what he was ruling — because of how he was implying it.

^yea prettty much this you arent supposed to ask for private knowledge or give it

But duelingbook allows players to let their opponents know when they have no hand traps. That way, those opponents can do their combos without having to wait for every activation and summon to be approved by both players, and saying "no hand traps" also counts as revealing private knowledge as you're revealing that each card in your hand is something that can't be activated from the hand that turn. What makes asking for a specific card to be shown and promising to surrender when it's shown different?

Also, what do you mean by "you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine"? If it's cheating it must be punished with a game loss or freeze, not overlooked for the game to continue, no?

The question posed by coder was merely to point out the ridiculousness of the players statement and that it should never be said. And we absolutely do not allow people to tell their opponents anything about their private knowledge in their hand. players may commonly do it and we may not penalize it but I will 100% freeze a player if they say no hand traps then ash blossom your pot of duality.

We are fine with players saying go nuts or just combo off or I wont interrupt you but actually stating info is not allowed. We have a forum topic covering info revelations here viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13619

Realistically players should never ever be taking shortcuts in gameplay or communication. doing such leads to disputes that do not need to happen.

[Genexwrecker]

At best you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine here. We dont enforce gentleman’s agreements.

You mean stuff like
A Duelist tells her opponent “If you show me Honest in your hand, I will forfeit the game”. When the opponent reveals a copy of Honest, she
activates Mind Crush and selects Honest.
or
A Duelist suggests to his opponent that they should choose not to side in Fairy Wind as they go in to Game 2 of their Match, then proceeds to side in Fairy Wind anyways.

to pull from page 11 of https://img.yugioh-card.com/ygo_cms/ygo ... y_V2.1.pdf

I'll just break the link here so it's visible in case the site messes with the link above.
https://img.yugioh-card. com/ygo_cms/ygo/all/uploads/ Official_KDEE_Tournament_Infractions_Penalties_Policy_V2.1.pdf

yep

[Genexwrecker]

https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=39685797

This player said "show me the mine and ill scoop" in this duel, meaning he's promising to admit defeat upon seeing the Mystic Mine his opponent was running. However, when that opponent later indeed displayed Mystic Mine, his excuse for not admitting defeat at that point was that it wasn't shown "at that moment" he made the promise.

However, I think the judge should've still given him a game loss for lying because he never said that the Mystic Mine had to be shown at the specific time he asked to see it for him to admit defeat — only that the card had to be shown at some point during that turn or so.

What is duelingbook's rule regarding this? If someone explicitly promises to admit defeat upon seeing you play a certain card, does that mean you have to have the card in question in your hand (or face-down on your field) at that point in time for them to admit defeat, and then if you instead show the card later on that turn they no longer have to admit defeat, or do you get to open up your deck (or extra deck) and bring out the card in question for them to then have to admit defeat? Should this player have received a game loss after seeing the Mystic Mine when he promised earlier that turn to admit defeat upon seeing it?

Lying is cheating, and cheating means you get frozen, so if this stuff gets penalized, a game loss would be underselling it.

the situation here is more of a "if i am wrong on the ruling I will admit" kind of scenario than one meant to gain them advantage. cheating requires intent and it is up to us to determine that intent. this just looks like the player is not being too smart with their actions rather than malice.

[Christen57]

At best you can label it as cheating but having them continue the game is fine here. We dont enforce gentleman’s agreements.

You mean stuff like
A Duelist tells her opponent “If you show me Honest in your hand, I will forfeit the game”. When the opponent reveals a copy of Honest, she
activates Mind Crush and selects Honest.
or
A Duelist suggests to his opponent that they should choose not to side in Fairy Wind as they go in to Game 2 of their Match, then proceeds to side in Fairy Wind anyways.

to pull from page 11 of https://img.yugioh-card.com/ygo_cms/ygo ... y_V2.1.pdf

I'll just break the link here so it's visible in case the site messes with the link above.
https://img.yugioh-card. com/ygo_cms/ygo/all/uploads/ Official_KDEE_Tournament_Infractions_Penalties_Policy_V2.1.pdf

yep

Why won't you penalize it if the PDF explicitly says it counts as cheating?

the situation here is more of a "if i am wrong on the ruling I will admit" kind of scenario than one meant to gain them advantage.

But if you explicitly promise to surrender upon your opponent revealing a card in their hand, and you don't surrender once it's revealed, you now lied to your opponent to gain an unfair advantage (information about what's in their hand) which is cheating, no?

Also, you didn't answer my other 2 questions:

• If what you say is supposed to override what you do, how does you explicitly saying you'll surrender upon seeing a specific card not override your action of choosing to change your mind and not surrender?
• Duelingbook allows players to let their opponents know when they have no hand traps. That way, those opponents can do their combos without having to wait for every activation and summon to be approved by both players, and saying "no hand traps" also counts as revealing private knowledge as you're revealing that each card in your hand is something that can't be activated from the hand that turn. What makes asking for a specific card to be shown and promising to surrender when it's shown different? Why is that not allowed when saying you have no hand traps is, even though both of those things constitute "revealing private knowledge"?

[greg503]

He just thought after siding that he was ready to play it out

[Christen57]

He just thought after siding that he was ready to play it out

But this was literally on the same turn he made that promise that the opponent presented Mystic Mine, and since things you say override things you try to do, it should be ruled that you must go through with what you said you'd do (admit defeat upon seeing the card) and that you can't take that back since it's legal.

[Genexwrecker]

1.) we dont penalize because we are not konami. We follow most policies but not all of them.

2.) what they say doesnt really get to override the duel continuing.

3.) I already explained that we do not allow players to say “no hand traps” players should never be revealing info.

[Christen57]

3.) I already explained that we do not allow players to say “no hand traps” players should never be revealing info.

You just linked to this thread this morning saying players are permitted to say such things as long as they're not lying about it. https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13619

Also, does this mean you're not supposed to promise to surrender at all if a certain card is shown? What if you know the opponent is likely going to OTK you with a Borrelsword or Accesscode or something, and that you have nothing to stop it if they are? Can't you just ask them to show you the card so you and them don't have to continue wasting time with the duel any further when the both of you know at that point that any of those boss monsters being brought out will lead to a swift OTK?

[Genexwrecker]

3.) I already explained that we do not allow players to say “no hand traps” players should never be revealing info.

You just linked to this thread this morning saying players are permitted to say such things as long as they're not lying about it. https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=13619

Also, does this mean you're not supposed to promise to surrender at all if a certain card is shown? What if you know the opponent is likely going to OTK you with a Borrelsword or Accesscode or something, and that you have nothing to stop it if they are? Can't you just ask them to show you the card so you and them don't have to continue wasting time with the duel any further when the both of you know at that point that any of those boss monsters being brought out will lead to a swift OTK?

while permitted we do not reccomend nore endorse stating such things and will absolutely bring down the hammer if abused. end of the day you still should not ever be revealing private info we just arent going to freeze u if you do as long as ur not cheating.

if a player says they will admit if x card gets played we investigate and determine if they were trying to gain info or just being not smart. one is penalized for cheating the other is not.