Call of the Haunted departure with Gemini Summon Negated (?)

[Platinumeye]

So I've discussed with some top ruling experts in a discord and they were stunned by this question IF anyone knows this one:

If the gemini summon of a Gemini monster on Call of the Haunted life support is negated and destroyed (via Solemn Judgment/Solemn Warning/Horn of Heaven, etc.), does Call of the Haunted stay or depart?

Thanks!

[Renji Asuka]

I'd imagine being Normal Summoned (to gain its effect), it'd be treated as a new monster and would no longer be attached to Call of the Haunted.

[Christen57]

I believe Renji Asuka's answer is incorrect. This page that talks about Gemini monsters https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Gemini_monster says "Cards and effects that are targeting or affecting the Gemini monster (such as Equip Spell Cards) remain in effect after the Summon."

In other words, Gemini monsters wouldn't "be treated as a new monster" and wouldn't "detach" themselves from cards such as Call of the Haunted just because they were Gemini summoned. The same thing goes for equip cards, as any equip cards that were equipped to them would remain equipped and not unequip after the Gemini summon.

This means Call of the Haunted would still be destroyed along with the Gemini monster since Call of the Haunted simply says "When that monster is destroyed, destroy this card" and Solemn Judgment does destroy the monster, which is all Call of the Haunted cares about. It doesn't care if the monster was destroyed by having it's Gemini summon negated, destroyed by some other effect like Mirror Force, or destroyed by battle. It only cares that the monster is destroyed, period.

[greg503]

I tested in Master Duel, equips don't fall off when a Gemini is Resummoned

[Wek]

So I've discussed with some top ruling experts in a discord and they were stunned by this question IF anyone knows this one:

If the gemini summon of a Gemini monster on Call of the Haunted life support is negated and destroyed (via Solemn Judgment/Solemn Warning/Horn of Heaven, etc.), does Call of the Haunted stay or depart?

Thanks!

Considering a Gemini Monster isn't on the field after its summon is negated, I'd be surprised if Call of the Haunted could destroy itself as a result of the destruction after the summon negation. Doubt there's a ruling on this exact scenario though.

[Genexwrecker]

gemini monsters are continuously targeted by cards like call of the haunted. they do not leave the feild to perform a summon again and are never considered to have left the feild if the normal summon is negated. Since it is destroyed on the field call of the haunted will be destroyed as well. However for other effects and things that might get involved in other scenarios the card is not considered to be sent from the field to the graveyard

[Wek]

gemini monsters are continuously targeted by cards like call of the haunted. they do not leave the feild to perform a summon again and are never considered to have left the feild if the normal summon is negated. Since it is destroyed on the field call of the haunted will be destroyed as well. However for other effects and things that might get involved in other scenarios the card is not considered to be sent from the field to the graveyard

Monsters don't tend to be on the field after their summon is negated, where are you getting it is destroyed on the field?

[greg503]

gemini monsters are continuously targeted by cards like call of the haunted. they do not leave the feild to perform a summon again and are never considered to have left the feild if the normal summon is negated. Since it is destroyed on the field call of the haunted will be destroyed as well. However for other effects and things that might get involved in other scenarios the card is not considered to be sent from the field to the graveyard

Monsters don't tend to be on the field after their summon is negated, where are you getting it is destroyed on the field?

The question asks about the Gemini Summon being negated, which means the monster was on the field, and then Normal Summoned again

[Wek]

gemini monsters are continuously targeted by cards like call of the haunted. they do not leave the feild to perform a summon again and are never considered to have left the feild if the normal summon is negated. Since it is destroyed on the field call of the haunted will be destroyed as well. However for other effects and things that might get involved in other scenarios the card is not considered to be sent from the field to the graveyard

Monsters don't tend to be on the field after their summon is negated, where are you getting it is destroyed on the field?

The question asks about the Gemini Summon being negated, which means the monster was on the field, and then Normal Summoned again

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

[Lil Oldman]

Monsters don't tend to be on the field after their summon is negated, where are you getting it is destroyed on the field?

The question asks about the Gemini Summon being negated, which means the monster was on the field, and then Normal Summoned again

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

But the thing is already there, when a monster is about to be summoned does it enter into play field limbo or does it stay in the place it was before being summoned?

[greg503]

The question asks about the Gemini Summon being negated, which means the monster was on the field, and then Normal Summoned again

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

But the thing is already there, when a monster is about to be summoned does it enter into play field limbo or does it stay in the place it was before being summoned?

If it's a Gemini Summon, then it's being Summoned entirely on the field

[Christen57]

Monsters don't tend to be on the field after their summon is negated, where are you getting it is destroyed on the field?

The question asks about the Gemini Summon being negated, which means the monster was on the field, and then Normal Summoned again

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

Correct, but Call of the Haunted remains "connected" to the gemini monster during this process, and after Solemn Judgment destroys the monster, Call of the Haunted is destroyed as well while the monster is now treated as being destroyed and sent to the graveyard but no longer from the field specifically since, as you said, the Gemini summon was now negated.

Think about it this way: When a Gemini monster that is already on the field is being normal summoned to gain it's bonus effect(s), it's like the monster is jumping in the air while holding onto Call of the Haunted, then landing back to the ground to gain said effect(s), and during this process, it never "lets go" of Call of the Haunted, but when the monster jumps into the air, then tries to land back onto the field, but Solemn Judgment steps it and stops the monster from landing and instead keeps the monster in the air, the monster is still holding onto Call of the Haunted at this time but is now destroyed by Solemn Judgment and send to the graveyard, taking Call of the Haunted to the graveyard with it since it hasn't let go of Call of the Haunted, and Call of the Haunted goes to the graveyard with it because Call of the Haunted recognizes the monster that's still "holding" onto it as being destroyed, and that's all Call of the Haunted cares about. It doesn't care how the monster is destroyed, only that the monster is destroyed.

[Genexwrecker]

realistically you are not going to get a solid answer here as gemini mechanics and rules are very rarely engraved or regonized. It should realistically be destroyed in my opinion when you apply all possible mechanics to the scenario but you also have a strong argument for why it shouldnt be destroyed.

The best thing to do is assume called will not be destroyed here.

[Christen57]

realistically you are not going to get a solid answer here as gemini mechanics and rules are very rarely engraved or regonized. It should realistically be destroyed in my opinion when you apply all possible mechanics to the scenario but you also have a strong argument for why it shouldnt be destroyed.

The best thing to do is assume called will not be destroyed here.

If even you aren't sure of this ruling then DB Head Judge needs to post an official ruling for this that duelingbook will go by. https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewforum.php?f=49

[Christen57]

I tested in Master Duel, equips don't fall off when a Gemini is Resummoned

Can you test in Master Duel whether or not Call of the Haunted will remain on the field if the Gemini monster it special summons has it's on-field normal summon negated by Solemn Judgment?

[Genexwrecker]

Do not use master duel as a ruling source.

[Genexwrecker]

realistically you are not going to get a solid answer here as gemini mechanics and rules are very rarely engraved or regonized. It should realistically be destroyed in my opinion when you apply all possible mechanics to the scenario but you also have a strong argument for why it shouldnt be destroyed.

The best thing to do is assume called will not be destroyed here.

If even you aren't sure of this ruling then DB Head Judge needs to post an official ruling for this that duelingbook will go by. https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewforum.php?f=49

its gonna depend on who takes it at the time there isnt anything concrete. majority of us will likely rule that it will not be destroyed. if it is to be argued it would be during that judge call.

[Renji Asuka]

Do not use master duel as a ruling source.

Why not? It's an official Konami product? Wouldn't they have the rulings programmed?

[Wek]

The question asks about the Gemini Summon being negated, which means the monster was on the field, and then Normal Summoned again

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

But the thing is already there, when a monster is about to be summoned does it enter into play field limbo or does it stay in the place it was before being summoned?

Most monsters, definite no. If you're trying to flip summon, they're not face-up. You might be able to get away with arguing they're on the field but not face-up, (and probably not facedown either) and I don't think anything major has contradicted it yet, but that'd be an odd theory to go with. If you're Gemini Summoning, no one knows for sure. I can tell you if their summon is negated even though they're not on the field anymore, they weren't sent to the GY from the field. That much is fact.

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

But the thing is already there, when a monster is about to be summoned does it enter into play field limbo or does it stay in the place it was before being summoned?

If it's a Gemini Summon, then it's being Summoned entirely on the field

GL proving that one way or the other. You can find opinions on this, but no major sources that go over the status of a Gemini monster specifically when it would be summoned. Fringe material and opinions at best.

The question asks about the Gemini Summon being negated, which means the monster was on the field, and then Normal Summoned again

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

Correct, but Call of the Haunted remains "connected" to the gemini monster during this process, and after Solemn Judgment destroys the monster, Call of the Haunted is destroyed as well while the monster is now treated as being destroyed and sent to the graveyard but no longer from the field specifically since, as you said, the Gemini summon was now negated.

Think about it this way: When a Gemini monster that is already on the field is being normal summoned to gain it's bonus effect(s), it's like the monster is jumping in the air while holding onto Call of the Haunted, then landing back to the ground to gain said effect(s), and during this process, it never "lets go" of Call of the Haunted, but when the monster jumps into the air, then tries to land back onto the field, but Solemn Judgment steps it and stops the monster from landing and instead keeps the monster in the air, the monster is still holding onto Call of the Haunted at this time but is now destroyed by Solemn Judgment and send to the graveyard, taking Call of the Haunted to the graveyard with it since it hasn't let go of Call of the Haunted, and Call of the Haunted goes to the graveyard with it because Call of the Haunted recognizes the monster that's still "holding" onto it as being destroyed, and that's all Call of the Haunted cares about. It doesn't care how the monster is destroyed, only that the monster is destroyed.

Too much focus on trying to make a description on what you think happens in your head, and too little focus on finding actual material. It showed when you used an uncited Yugipedia page as a source. This same page was claiming how X-Sabers are a commonly played deck. Use primary sources, or secondary sources that cite/translate from primary sources, so you can verify it. Where's the actual information on if Geminis keep equips? Rider of the Storm Winds has a database ruling on that, use that as your source. Even if you don't end up posting it every time you mention that information, it's a good idea to know where to find that stuff so you know you aren't just making stuff up.

Here are some facts. If you Gemini summon a monster, equips stay on it. Equips aren't the only effects to still apply. However, if you negate the Gemini Summon of a monster, it is no longer on the field, but isn't sent from the field to the GY, even though it had been on the field prior to the summoning attempt. Each of those statements has a ruling to back it up.

Based on this information, Call of the Haunted should stay applying when a monster is successfully Gemini Summoned. However, if the Gemini summon is negated, the monster is not on the field at the time it gets destroyed. So, if you want to argue Call of the Haunted is still applying to it, you'd have to argue Call of the Haunted applies even when the monster is no longer on the field at the time it was destroyed. That would be unusual, in fact if it were true this would be the only time that's ever happened, and it would be leaning hard on how weird Gemini summoning is.

So I've discussed with some top ruling experts in a discord and they were stunned by this question IF anyone knows this one:

If the gemini summon of a Gemini monster on Call of the Haunted life support is negated and destroyed (via Solemn Judgment/Solemn Warning/Horn of Heaven, etc.), does Call of the Haunted stay or depart?

Thanks!

What Discord was this anyways? I could see actual rulings experts being unwilling to guarantee how this plays out due to there not being an explicit ruling, especially on a mechanic as unusual and lacking in citations as Geminis, but I'd expect they'd at least have an opinion based on the information out there on the most likely answer.

[Christen57]

realistically you are not going to get a solid answer here as gemini mechanics and rules are very rarely engraved or regonized. It should realistically be destroyed in my opinion when you apply all possible mechanics to the scenario but you also have a strong argument for why it shouldnt be destroyed.

The best thing to do is assume called will not be destroyed here.

If even you aren't sure of this ruling then DB Head Judge needs to post an official ruling for this that duelingbook will go by. https://forum.duelingbook.com/viewforum.php?f=49

its gonna depend on who takes it at the time there isnt anything concrete. majority of us will likely rule that it will not be destroyed. if it is to be argued it would be during that judge call.

There are 2 reasons why it would still be better to have DB Head Judge announce a ruling for this scenario that duelingbook would go by. The first reason is so that, any time this situation does come up in a duel, instead of calling a judge and possibly wasting a judge's time just to come to the duel and explain this ruling, players can simply come to this forum and look at the official ruling given here by DB Head Judge, allowing judges to focus their time towards more important issues.

The second reason is... precedent. Say this situation occurs in a duel of mine, I call a judge, and a judge comes in and rules that Call of the Haunted will be destroyed along with the Gemini monster. Now, whenever a situation like this arises again and there's a disagreement over whether or not Call of the Haunted will stay on the field, I can simply direct the peoples' attention to that replay where the judge ruled in my favor and say "This judge said Call of the Haunted will be destroyed so I'm right and you're wrong".
The only problem is, say some other player tries to pull the same trick but with a replay where a judge rules the opposite — that Call of the Haunted will remain on the field — and then that player tries to use that replay as proof that they're right and I'm wrong. I think things could get ugly at that point since both of us have replays "proving" that our ruling is correct and the other's is wrong, so now a third judge needs to come in and be the tiebreaker, and if that third judge rules in my favor, the other player could end up thinking that the judge who ruled in their favor is now incompetent or something for giving them a wrong ruling. It saves judges time and resources if DB Head Judge gives an official ruling for this so you don't have situations where 2 or even 3 judges get involved in a duel for 1 ruling. You want to minimize the amount of judges that get involved in these kinds of issues so those additional judges can focus on other calls. You generally don't want multiple judges in a single call at once.
It's ultimately better for DB Head Judge to give an official ruling on this so it saves time and allows judges to focus on more important issues instead of having to answer call after call about this same issue, and also so that players don't end up thinking a judge who gave 1 ruling on this is now incompetent because a different judge gave a different ruling.

Do not use master duel as a ruling source.

Why not? It's an official Konami product? Wouldn't they have the rulings programmed?

I'm guessing it's because Master Duel may be programmed to follow OCG rulings instead of TCG rulings, so using Master Duel as a ruling source would be wrong if something is supposed to be ruled differently in the TCG than in the OCG. Master Duel's already programmed to use the OCG banlist I believe, so it's same to assume it's programmed for OCG format and OCG rulings as well.

Alternatively, it could be because, in duelingbook duels where there's a ruling dispute, anyone could then claim "I tested this interaction in Master Duel and it worked out this way" even though judges who get called to the duel(s) in question may not be able to verify if that interaction was actually tested if they don't have Master Duel themselves.

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

But the thing is already there, when a monster is about to be summoned does it enter into play field limbo or does it stay in the place it was before being summoned?

Most monsters, definite no. If you're trying to flip summon, they're not face-up. You might be able to get away with arguing they're on the field but not face-up, (and probably not facedown either) and I don't think anything major has contradicted it yet, but that'd be an odd theory to go with. If you're Gemini Summoning, no one knows for sure. I can tell you if their summon is negated even though they're not on the field anymore, they weren't sent to the GY from the field. That much is fact.

But the thing is already there, when a monster is about to be summoned does it enter into play field limbo or does it stay in the place it was before being summoned?

If it's a Gemini Summon, then it's being Summoned entirely on the field

GL proving that one way or the other. You can find opinions on this, but no major sources that go over the status of a Gemini monster specifically when it would be summoned. Fringe material and opinions at best.

And it's summon is negated, so it will not be considered on the field, and it is destroyed. While it may end up in the GY, it won't be sent there from the field.

Correct, but Call of the Haunted remains "connected" to the gemini monster during this process, and after Solemn Judgment destroys the monster, Call of the Haunted is destroyed as well while the monster is now treated as being destroyed and sent to the graveyard but no longer from the field specifically since, as you said, the Gemini summon was now negated.

Think about it this way: When a Gemini monster that is already on the field is being normal summoned to gain it's bonus effect(s), it's like the monster is jumping in the air while holding onto Call of the Haunted, then landing back to the ground to gain said effect(s), and during this process, it never "lets go" of Call of the Haunted, but when the monster jumps into the air, then tries to land back onto the field, but Solemn Judgment steps it and stops the monster from landing and instead keeps the monster in the air, the monster is still holding onto Call of the Haunted at this time but is now destroyed by Solemn Judgment and send to the graveyard, taking Call of the Haunted to the graveyard with it since it hasn't let go of Call of the Haunted, and Call of the Haunted goes to the graveyard with it because Call of the Haunted recognizes the monster that's still "holding" onto it as being destroyed, and that's all Call of the Haunted cares about. It doesn't care how the monster is destroyed, only that the monster is destroyed.

Too much focus on trying to make a description on what you think happens in your head, and too little focus on finding actual material. It showed when you used an uncited Yugipedia page as a source.

Yugipedia and https://db.ygorganization.com are the go-to sources for rulings. These are the places you check first when you have a question about a specific ruling.

This same page was claiming how X-Sabers are a commonly played deck.

Then that must mean X-Sabers were commonly played back when the article was first written. Either way, X-Sabers being common isn't relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is the specific thing that I cited, about how Gemini monsters keep equip cards, and effects like Call of the Haunted, when being normal summoned to gain their bonus effects.

Here are some facts. If you Gemini summon a monster, equips stay on it. Equips aren't the only effects to still apply. However, if you negate the Gemini Summon of a monster, it is no longer on the field, but isn't sent from the field to the GY, even though it had been on the field prior to the summoning attempt. Each of those statements has a ruling to back it up.

Are you saying that if a Gemini monster equipped with an equip card attempts to normal summon itself to gain it's bonus effect, then the equip card will unequip during the normal summon attempt, and then re-equip once the normal summon turns out to be successful? If so, that doesn't really make sense since equip cards have to be equipped to something at all times or else they immediately go to the graveyard, so if this was the case, the equip card wouldn't re-equip. It would instead just immediately go to the graveyard, whether or not the Gemini monster's normal summon turns out to be successful. The article I cited says that the equip cards, and Call of the Haunted effects, "remain" in effect for Gemini summons, not that they stop applying then re-apply.

Based on this information, Call of the Haunted should stay applying when a monster is successfully Gemini Summoned. However, if the Gemini summon is negated, the monster is not on the field at the time it gets destroyed. So, if you want to argue Call of the Haunted is still applying to it, you'd have to argue Call of the Haunted applies even when the monster is no longer on the field at the time it was destroyed. That would be unusual, in fact if it were true this would be the only time that's ever happened, and it would be leaning hard on how weird Gemini summoning is.

I believe Call of the Haunted stops applying to the monster once that monster is flipped face-down, moves to a Spell & Trap Zone, hand, deck, extra deck, or graveyard, or becomes banished or an xyz material. None of these things happen to the Gemini monster just because it's on-field normal summon is in the middle of being negated by Solemn Judgment, only once Solemn Judgment actually destroys the monster. From there, the monster will then begin it's transition to the graveyard or something, while upon this destruction, Call of the Haunted gets destroyed as well since a destruction of the monster now occurred without the monster yet being flipped face-down or ending up in any of those other locations I mentioned.