Suggestion: Replacing RPS for Rolls in Ranked

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Zenonblade75
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Re: Suggestion: Replacing RPS for Rolls in Ranked

Post #21 by Zenonblade75 » Fri May 01, 2020 3:36 am

Hello All

After reading this post and most of the comments here, here is my feed back

I hope you understand what I am writing, coming from and here is my take on this from the experiences from playing the game online using DB, some game boy games as well YGO pro and in real life. I don't really write a lot of blogs, post, comment about yu gi oh much but played this game since i was a little boy First Card was "RUDE KAISER"

I do believe the RPS system does have its pros and cons in the online world of YGO, since most games use it to choose who goes first or second. Also I am not saying the dice roll method would be saving this game mechanics.

I feel that the dice roll method would be innovative idea to implement in some rated games such as singles in DB and the evolution of the game as become such a fast pace game as well it can resemble to real life interaction of the game up to an extent. Also it is a totally random outcomes in making you ready for both scenarios which a duelist with experience who has played the game should able to adapt to it and to make the game as fair as possible.(as always just like life "life is never fair" and you can never have everything what you want it to be, as well if the decision is final just suck it up and live with it, unless you have an explanation and proper evidence. One thing that i remember when playing Dueling Network when you use to choose your opponent in rated then having the duel pool which is now random and they able to match you with someone with a similar skill set, experience and wins. You can have 1000 rated/8000 exp and still lose to someone who has 100/0 who knows the game in and out and just because of he got to choose the outcome of the game by winning the RPS. But in any game there are always advantages of choosing first or second which can predetermine/ determining the outcome of the game with using technology to support you such as YGO scope, the duel logs on dueling book (replays as well), spectating the opponent matches and for singles, following them so you can see their pattern of choosing RPS. Even science has shown us of this system. The example is down below. Inclusion changing that will take some time to adjust as well as its up to people ( judges, creator of the games to decide that). I hope that whatever the outcome is, i will support it and people will still continue playing the game. For me this game was part of my childhood.

Thanks you for reading my post, if you happen to have any comments, feedback, question for me as well if i missed anything please Pm me on Dueling Book :). I am welcome to listen to your thought.

Cheers ZenonBlade75 4/30/2020


Here the example taken from this website for references . https://futurism.com/science-has-figure ... r-scissors.

Last Round: You Won

And you played rock, play scissors next.
And you played scissors, play paper next.
And you played paper, play rock next.
Last Round: You Lost

And you played rock, play scissors next
And you played scissors, play paper next.
And you played paper, play rock next.
Last Round: You Lost (and the other person saw this article)

And you played rock, play paper next.
And you played scissors, play rock next.
And you played paper, play scissors next.

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Post #22 by Lamassu » Fri May 01, 2020 4:35 am

Honestly, changing RPS is the least thing to be made.
I completely agree with you.

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Post #23 by Drottle » Fri May 01, 2020 5:44 am

Wholeheartedly agree
:smug:

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Post #24 by BrainStone » Mon May 04, 2020 10:27 pm

I disagree.

For the simple reason that while RPS is not a completely random system (like let's say 90% random, 10% mind games), I would say that it is perfect for an online simulator.
Because it gives the player the feeling of being in control. If they lose they have nobody to blame for the loss but themselves (or the opponent).

However if a dice roll was implemented it suddenly because pure random chance. Nothing is in control anymore and and losing streaks can easily be blamed on the system, which can easily frustrate people!

Now a dice roll works IRL because while the mind game component is no longer present people still feel like they are at least a bit in control, as they do the actual roll. The only thing that could receive the blame in this case is the die. But both parties either using the same die or their own fixes that dilemma too.

So while I understand your desire for the outcome of the decider game to be as random as possible, I don't think it works that well online. For online games RPS is a much better choice.

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Post #25 by Monarch Snow » Tue May 05, 2020 8:11 pm

BrainStone wrote:I disagree.

For the simple reason that while RPS is not a completely random system (like let's say 90% random, 10% mind games), I would say that it is perfect for an online simulator.
Because it gives the player the feeling of being in control. If they lose they have nobody to blame for the loss but themselves (or the opponent).

However if a dice roll was implemented it suddenly because pure random chance. Nothing is in control anymore and and losing streaks can easily be blamed on the system, which can easily frustrate people!

Now a dice roll works IRL because while the mind game component is no longer present people still feel like they are at least a bit in control, as they do the actual roll. The only thing that could receive the blame in this case is the die. But both parties either using the same die or their own fixes that dilemma too.

So while I understand your desire for the outcome of the decider game to be as random as possible, I don't think it works that well online. For online games RPS is a much better choice.



Losing streaks can easily be blamed on the system, which can easily frustrate people!
- People blame the shuffler (sometimes justifyingly) for their losses.
- You can extend this line of text to even Konami decisions if you connect the dots perfectly.
- People are going to be frustrated at times whether they lose or not.

However if a dice roll was implemented it suddenly because pure random chance
- That how who goes first or second is supposed to operate. Not my words, Konami's.

Now a dice roll works IRL because while the mind game component is no longer present people still feel like they are at least a bit in control
- You are not in control at all, whether you feel like you are or not.
- You're not supposed to be in control or have any type of advantage at all.

- The only thing that could receive the blame in this case is the die. But both parties either using the same die or their own fixes that dilemma too.
- The system would have to have both players use a die that's scripted by Duelingbook that both use pre-game.....
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Post #26 by Play2X » Tue May 05, 2020 10:40 pm

Quite honestly, I wouldn't trust a die, neither on DB, nor IRL. So I wholeheartedly agree with BrainStone.
There are so many problems in YGO that need fixing, the pregame Janken is the least of them. Of course it is not the perfect solution,
but neither is a die, because all algorithms are at best pseudo-random. And if you were to use a dice IRL, you could cheat that one just as well.
So I don't really see the point. I mean, I get your reasoning, but all it does is make more work for the programmers, who change the code. The result is the same.

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Post #27 by BrainStone » Wed May 06, 2020 3:30 pm

Monarch Snow wrote:- You are not in control at all, whether you feel like you are or not.
- You're not supposed to be in control or have any type of advantage at all.


I know that you are not in control even though it feels like you are at least a certain bit. The thing is being at completely random odd with not control whatsoever (including only percived control) is very frustrating.
And of course, you're not supposed to be in control. Not saying anyone should be IRL.

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Post #28 by Monarch Snow » Thu May 07, 2020 7:08 am

BrainStone wrote:
Monarch Snow wrote:- You are not in control at all, whether you feel like you are or not.
- You're not supposed to be in control or have any type of advantage at all.


I know that you are not in control even though it feels like you are at least a certain bit. The thing is being at completely random odd with not control whatsoever (including only percived control) is very frustrating.
And of course, you're not supposed to be in control. Not saying anyone should be IRL.


I have never from personal experience seen a player at a table think they could feel certain about a roll of the dice without attempting to manipulate the dice. As you know, there isn't/shouldn't be control IRL, the same should apply for DB & if people want to blame it on the system, let them be frustrated.
I'd rather see someone be frustrated losing by chance of the roll, then someone lose, because a user manipulated the outcome of the Duel before it even began.
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Post #29 by Monarch Snow » Thu May 07, 2020 7:14 am

Play2X wrote:Quite honestly, I wouldn't trust a die, neither on DB, nor IRL. So I wholeheartedly agree with BrainStone.
There are so many problems in YGO that need fixing, the pregame Janken is the least of them. Of course it is not the perfect solution,
but neither is a die, because all algorithms are at best pseudo-random. And if you were to use a dice IRL, you could cheat that one just as well.
So I don't really see the point. I mean, I get your reasoning, but all it does is make more work for the programmers, who change the code. The result is the same.



The perfect solution for DB would be to have ranked replays remove RPS when they are recorded, but having the game chat still legible (for Judge Call report purposes).
I'd be surprised if someone could consistently cheat a die roll on IRL.

As for programmers. I'm no programmer & I assume this would take time to implement, though I do have a Tournament Organizer in my server who has developed a system where users could dictate who goes 1st or 2nd by having them linked to their program.

This program was created and stabilized in 2 days time.
Now obviously, DB Administration likely doesn't have as much leisure (I would think at least) & a simulator (I think) would be more complex.

Though, if creating a program for such can be done in 2 days, I would like to think something like this could be implemented into DB in a short period of time.
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Post #30 by Runzy » Thu May 07, 2020 8:41 am

If you are worried about ygoscope don't choose the same thing over and over. Ranked replays show everything not sure if the RPS alone can be removed. I don't think there is anything currently wrong with it and think it should remain as RPS.
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Post #31 by PENMASTER » Thu May 07, 2020 2:54 pm

hello this is off topic but when i log in it and hit duel it says lost connection i treid everything
love2hate

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Post #32 by Monarch Snow » Thu May 07, 2020 5:48 pm

Runzy wrote:If you are worried about ygoscope don't choose the same thing over and over. Ranked replays show everything not sure if the RPS alone can be removed. I don't think there is anything currently wrong with it and think it should remain as RPS.



Switching RPS choices is not the solution & I'd recommend reading an earlier in response in the forum not just by myself, but another member on why it is not.

As for nothing currently wrong with it: On a test account and with a player in the Top 16 Matches for Duelingbook (as of the time of this message), massive winning streaks were easily accumulated not due to individual player skill (a-lot of time players were using the same type of Deck), but because they won RPS (using Scope btw). It's an issue that only gets worse over time (& the more poorly Konami manages this game).
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Post #33 by Runzy » Thu May 07, 2020 8:43 pm

I'm still fine with it if you are scared of getting scoped choose differently 4head.
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Post #34 by Alisae » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:52 am

Image

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Post #35 by Alisae » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:52 am

guys theres no issue here no one ygoscopes guys

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Post #36 by Alisae » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:03 am

This is a really hot take I think is probably super wrong but I am going to post it anyways. I saw Genex posting a poll on the main menu about how DB should decide who gets to go first/second (I voted for DB deciding) and I saw this thread so I figured I would revive it as well as just have the thread in my egosearch as well as post a funny of someone randomly pming me today and telling me that ygoscope isn't an issue. fwiw it definitely shouldn't be RPS anymore because no one actually uses RPS to decide who goes first or second rl and you don't get that control rl. Dice is the easiest way to do it but for something like this db should probably decide, but that's not exactly my hot take.

the player with the lowest rating should decide if they want to go first or second. I know in some other games, I'm not sure chess does this but I know League does, they give the lefthand side of the map lower mmr players overall because that team has first pick and other advantages due to being on the left side hand of the map. If you win you win more since the opponents you're playing against are better, and if you lose, you don't lose that much considering the opponents you're playing against are better. Therefore, the logic I'm applying here is that the lower rating player needs more help.

There are probably several reasons as to why this can't exactly work, mostly probably due to how small the website is and how many people actually play rated, or even the other ladders like the goat ladder thats definitely not as popular, so db deciding randomly or a die roll would probably be better (tho I don't see why we're using a die if we have the technology to just let the website decide who goes first or second).

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Post #37 by Alisae » Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:21 am

Also why are half of the comments in the thread "just play around it idiot" coming from people who should just know better due to how much they play the game.
Some people may not know of its existence, so how can you play around something you don't know exists?

This also doesn't change the fact that the system just in general is really outdated.
Like we have the technology to impliment a truely random method of deciding who decides to go 1st/2nd. I don't get why players want to feel like they're in control of this when that control is something you were never supposed to have.

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Post #38 by Monarch Snow » Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:25 pm

I've detected a new growing player consensus for the implementation of die roll instead of RPS.
I will be conducting another survey meant to gather more data centralized around this topic.
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Post #39 by Christen57 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:55 pm

I support replacing rock paper scissors with having the system automatically choose a player at random to decide who goes first, since it will make duels go by faster, even if only by a few seconds.

Most of the people who are against this are only against this because they either have little to no experience in coding or fear that if you make the system randomly pick a player, then the system will somehow be "biased" and begin to "favor" certain players more than others. However, we already have the coin button which randomly outputs either heads or tails, as well as the dice button with randomly outputs an integer from 1 to 6, and yet nobody complains that those are biased.

Still, these fears can be addressed by letting everyone see the code being used to randomly determine who goes first.

For example, take for instance this javascript code:

Code: Select all

javascript:alert(Math.round(Math.random()));


When you run this code, it outputs either 0 or 1, and it outputs it completely randomly. With this code, you will have a complete 50/50 chance of getting a 0, and a 50/50 chance of getting a 1. There is no bias hidden anywhere in this code, and we can all see this because we can see this code for ourselves. If you have player 1 and player 2 dueling each other, and they need a perfect random method for deciding who goes first, just use a code like this that will output either a 0 or a 1. Make it so that if 0 is outputted, player 1 goes first, and if 1 is outputted, player 2 goes first.

I use this code to simulate coin tosses. If the code outputs a 1, I count that as heads. If it outputs a 0, I count that as tails. A code like this can also be used to determine which player should go first. If the code outputs a 0, this player goes first, and if it outputs a 1, that player goes first.

This website can be used for testing javascript code: https://www.webtoolkitonline.com/javascript-tester.html

Image

Besides, most of duelingbook's code is already available to the public for viewing:
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/main.css
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/OverlayScrollbars.min.css
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/jquery.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/jquery-ui.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/jquery.ui.touch-punch.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/jquery.overlayScrollbars.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/snap.svg-min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/SnapSVGAnimator.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/TweenMax.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/watch.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/detect-zoom.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/dom-to-image.min.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/duel.js
https://www.duelingbook.com/static/html2canvas.min.js

We won't have to worry about the system favoring specific players as long as the code is available for us to read. We would be able to read it and see for ourselves if any biases exist within it.

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Post #40 by greg503 » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:55 pm

But how many seed values does it have?
Buy Floowandereeze


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