Suggestion: Replacing RPS for Rolls in Ranked

If you have a suggestion for the site, create a topic here and telll us about it
Monarch Snow
User avatar
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 am
Reputation: 112

Suggestion: Replacing RPS for Rolls in Ranked

Post #1 by Monarch Snow » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:22 pm

Disclaimer 1:
Before reading, please make sure you can comprehend this statement & its entirety so you can understand my point-of-view:
This suggestion is in no-way intended to serve as an offensive remark to YGOrganization, Duelingbook Staff, or anyone associated in any way to the website YGOScope and its development.

Disclaimer 2:
If there's any thread that voices similar concerns for ranked gameplay on Duelingbook, I apologize if I missed over it.
--------------------------------------

In Yu-Gi-Oh!, selecting to go 1st or 2nd can play as a critical factor in deciding who will be victorious.
This approach can be applied very well when taking in regards competitive gameplay, the evolution of the game, & even card design.
So critical, that the entire process of deciding who goes 1st or 2nd is left to be entirely random, most commonly with die/dice.

Duelingbook currently uses RPS (Rock-Paper-Scissors) to decide who goes 1st or 2nd. In theory, there is nothing wrong with this practice.
Over time however, this practice has slowly displayed itself to be a bit (for lack of a better word and keeping court), improper.

RPS remains random still as you won't know for certain what your opponent will pick assuming you're not a hacker, psychic, or your opponent doesn't bluntly tell you & you believe them & you happen to be right, but what if I told you that such randomosity is becoming less and less random, and in some special cases, a certain?

A user acquiring a replay after a duel's conclusion & dueling one of those same persons in ranked immediately is unlikely.
It's unlikely unless you're paired by chance, you both have similar rating, or you exploit the algorithm (which is an offense).
Assume that you do however queue against one of those persons.
In such a case, you the ex-spectator would/should know what that player picked in RPS (& maybe their Deck of choice) if attentive enough.

If you assume that your opponent didn't notice you as a spectator & they don't intend to change their RPS decision (or even deck choice), you could theoretically win RPS. Still unlikely in its own regard, but probable assuming your opponent doesn't "feel pressured".
However, this "unlikely" can be a "likely" by being able to get ANY opponent's replay on hand, not just one you spectated.

YGOScope to put briefly, is a website that acquires analytics for Yu-Gi-Oh! and it updates relatively quickly (in my experience, less than 12 hrs, sometimes instantly).
In it, the latest ranked gameplay replays are featured to whichever user you decide to search (generally speaking).
Now YGOScope itself is not inherently bad & its purpose is great, HOWEVER, the speed at which replays are provided is an issue.
An issue for competitive laddering & gameplay on Duelingbook.

Remember how I told you that the likelihood of countering your opponent's RPS choice was unlikely, unless you watched one of their duels in real-time and they didn't feel inclined to switch RPS choice and/or Deck choice?
Now what if I told you, you could go to YGOScope and acquire their latest pick in less than 1 minute and you could remove the potential factor of being a spectator and removing such that factor of pressure?

Still not a certain and still random, but definitely insightful and much more narrowing & at least in some cases (putting it lightly), it would have to be correct.
Such a tactic unfortunately that is practiced a-lot, which at least from my point-of-view isn't tasteful for competitive gameplay.
Many "Top 16" and higher individual players in both Singles & Matches have admitted to using YGOScope as a method to gain advantage.
This has been the case for multiple different formats varying over a heavy period of time.
To the select couple that have spoken to me directly, they do not look at YGOScope in a positive lighting for this regard specifically.

YGOScope is a website that is only going to gain popularity, and over time, it noticeably has. More and more people will develop using it in the aforementioned way. Opposed to bringing upon this untasteful game style and providing more authenticity to Duelingbook, I suggest that Duelingbook do one of the following.

A) Replace RPS with Die/Dice Roll for the aforementioned reasons. (In my opinion, most practical.)
B) Have Users have the ability to remove their Usernames from being accessible in YGOScope's Database. (Seems extensive, but it works.)
C) Implement a 10-second timer. (Worst option because the website's servers are generally laggy not my words, a Judge's).

While Die roll still will never eradicate the issue of knowing whether to go 1st or 2nd based on replay, it will remove certainty as an element entirely, which in my personal opinion was the intention of randomizing between the players that go 1st or 2nd.
In my personal opinion (not factual), it will provide more "skillful" and "healthy" (take these words with a grain of salt) gameplay.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you've taken time to understand why this suggestion has been posted, I thank you.
If you voice approval and agreeance, please give this thread a reputation point.
For any other purposes such as disagreement, comments or concerns to anything related to advanced gameplay on DB, state it below.
As always, please respectful in the comments and to others' opinions if any.
RC-1, PC-1, & DC-1 Konami® Certified Judge
Retired Duelingbook Tournament Organizer
Retired Ozone Host/Administrator
Retired Judge in DU, DNx, /r/ Subrredit Discord, & The Ruling Zone
Founder of i3 & Harmonic Souls: Organized Play

jaybird
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:26 pm
Reputation: 0

Post #2 by jaybird » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:43 pm

This makes a lot of sense.

amer1234
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:58 pm
Reputation: 0

Post #3 by amer1234 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:51 pm

Hey. Im currently doing Uni exams and have no incentive to log into DB besides literal boredom so I wont follow up after this initial post. My thoughts on RPS is I personally am one to follow a pattern in my opponents, and this may well be the case they do with me. A die roll is completely random, someone might get pissed off they got first/second but they cannot blame it on the other person at all while with RPS they can. I fully support a die Roll, especially for singles as it makes the most logical sense.

The Wonder Kid
User avatar
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:47 am
Reputation: 0
Location: Mexico City, Mexico.
Mood:
Contact:

Post #4 by The Wonder Kid » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:22 pm

I personally don't care because I suck in the game anyways :pepega: However, I agree player's should decide if they want their info available in YGOScope or not.
The Wonder Kid
Former Resource Judge #1385
Mexico City
RC-1, PC-1, DC-1

I will follow the command and will of my queen, Tiaramisu! Long live the Queen and her divine privilege!

https://www.duelingbook.com/rules
https://www.duelingbook.com/policies
Image

Re-Qliate
User avatar
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:56 pm
Reputation: 75
Location: yes

Post #5 by Re-Qliate » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:28 pm

i dont think replacing RPS is a good idea at all.
Pretty much all DB users know about ygoscope, and if you don't change your pattern, then you're basically asking to get scoped.
Why replacing RPS when you can simply change your pick every game? It isn't that hard.

Removing your name from scope isn't a good idea either, if you're worried about people knowing about your deck and you think it is unfair, then let me tell you as an IRL player that in Top Cuts everyone knows which deck you're playing and what techs you're running. What's the difference?

YGOscope is just a tool like many others, there's nothing wrong with using it if you really care about ranked. As i said before if you don't "play around" it, you can only blame yourself.
Image

Monarch Snow
User avatar
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 am
Reputation: 112

Post #6 by Monarch Snow » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:44 pm

Re-Qliate wrote:i dont think replacing RPS is a good idea at all.
Pretty much all DB users know about ygoscope, and if you don't change your pattern, then you're basically asking to get scoped.
Why replacing RPS when you can simply change your pick every game? It isn't that hard.

Removing your name from scope isn't a good idea either, if you're worried about people knowing about your deck and you think it is unfair, then let me tell you as an IRL player that in Top Cuts everyone knows which deck you're playing and what techs you're running. What's the difference?

YGOscope is just a tool like many others, there's nothing wrong with using it if you really care about ranked. As i said before if you don't "play around" it, you can only blame yourself.


Naturally, changing a pattern would be the solution most people would think of.
However, alternation still doesn't change the fact that factors are in play that shouldn't be, personally as its meant to be entirely random.
You'll never know for certain, like I mentioned above, but you'll have a pretty decent change of hitting, unless you're applying a pressure.
A pressure that shouldn't be there in the first place.

At least from my perspective, it is not a game (or supposed to be) of who can outmind someone before the game has even started.
I also see no harm in such a conversion to rolls, considering the remaining one has had its respective criticism & problems.

As for privatizing info & Deck choice:
The process could work where Deck names and the users can still be searched and counted as apart of statistics.
I don't mind contributing in that way. After all, I think (I don't know for certain) decoding replays to acquire an entire decklist is entirely possible
RC-1, PC-1, & DC-1 Konami® Certified Judge
Retired Duelingbook Tournament Organizer
Retired Ozone Host/Administrator
Retired Judge in DU, DNx, /r/ Subrredit Discord, & The Ruling Zone
Founder of i3 & Harmonic Souls: Organized Play

the flaming storm
User avatar
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:04 pm
Reputation: 31

Post #7 by the flaming storm » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:48 pm

imagine spamming same shit every rps and expect not to lose yeah lets totally replace rps cuz of that

Monarch Snow
User avatar
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 am
Reputation: 112

Post #8 by Monarch Snow » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:52 pm

the flaming storm wrote:imagine spamming same shit every rps and expect not to lose yeah lets totally replace rps cuz of that

That's not why the suggestion was called upon. I politely request you re-read very carefully.
RC-1, PC-1, & DC-1 Konami® Certified Judge
Retired Duelingbook Tournament Organizer
Retired Ozone Host/Administrator
Retired Judge in DU, DNx, /r/ Subrredit Discord, & The Ruling Zone
Founder of i3 & Harmonic Souls: Organized Play

the flaming storm
User avatar
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:04 pm
Reputation: 31

Post #9 by the flaming storm » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:55 pm

just change what u do at rps and dont be retarded problem solved. no need to change whole system cuz u cant even use 2 braincells to change what u do at rps

Storm Crow
User avatar
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:39 pm
Reputation: 19

Post #10 by Storm Crow » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:58 pm

What no if you remove RPS how can I go and get unfair advantage in Rated singles then? Snow trying to kill our beloved RPS format? Smh

Monarch Snow
User avatar
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 am
Reputation: 112

Post #11 by Monarch Snow » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:59 pm

the flaming storm wrote:just change what u do at rps and dont be retarded problem solved. no need to change whole system cuz u cant even use 2 braincells to change what u do at rps


Whether this be harsh verbage to convey a point, I'm unsure, but to make it simple, switching patterns isn't the solution and to an extent, worsens the issue. I reiterate, please read everything stated above as condensing it into a "cold" message won't lead to any positivity.

Edit:
Again, I'm not seeing an issue to the conversion, as it helps DB from an authenticity standpoint.
Last edited by Monarch Snow on Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
RC-1, PC-1, & DC-1 Konami® Certified Judge
Retired Duelingbook Tournament Organizer
Retired Ozone Host/Administrator
Retired Judge in DU, DNx, /r/ Subrredit Discord, & The Ruling Zone
Founder of i3 & Harmonic Souls: Organized Play

Sayfeddine
User avatar
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:46 pm
Reputation: 3
Location: Morocco
Mood:

Post #12 by Sayfeddine » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:02 pm

I think this is a decision not only in DUELING BOOK but also on the whole.
It has become a game based on the principle of choosing a first player with a limit more than a second player, but your opponent who will be competing with him must be less or more than you in the rating points.

Yang Xiao Long
User avatar
Posts: 1047
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:28 pm
Reputation: 124
Location: Atlas

Post #13 by Yang Xiao Long » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:42 pm

just be good enough to win even when u lose RPS
Hashira | Tournament Organizer | Tournament Champion
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Image

Delirious Mango
User avatar
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:47 am
Reputation: 2

Post #14 by Delirious Mango » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:57 pm

I definitely agree with this idea. It doesn't affect me all too much, but I for one would prefer to play with a die roll as it more closely resembles IRL play. I tend to look at the patterns others play i.e. lower players may go for scissors whereas higher tend to go for rock, which isn't always accurate of course, but it's an advantage over a completely random roll nonetheless.

I don't think changing to a die roll would have much of an effect on the platform but I think it's a good change, being very beneficial to more so the tournament scene than rated play.

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #15 by Renji Asuka » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:06 pm

>Wants to replace RPS with a dice roll simply cause RPS is too random

Bruh.....making it to a die roll is even more random....
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

Monarch Snow
User avatar
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 am
Reputation: 112

Post #16 by Monarch Snow » Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:09 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:>Wants to replace RPS with a dice roll simply cause RPS is too random

Bruh.....making it to a die roll is even more random....


I think you misunderstand the scenario. If anything, the exact opposite is being inferred.
RC-1, PC-1, & DC-1 Konami® Certified Judge
Retired Duelingbook Tournament Organizer
Retired Ozone Host/Administrator
Retired Judge in DU, DNx, /r/ Subrredit Discord, & The Ruling Zone
Founder of i3 & Harmonic Souls: Organized Play

Toast
User avatar
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:54 am
Reputation: 0

Post #17 by Toast » Fri May 01, 2020 12:14 am

A Dieroll system would definetly be more appropriate as Going second/first are supposed to be entirely random.
And just because "everyone uses ygoscope" doesn't make it appealing to keep Rps, because it adds frustration to a part of the game that should not be frustrating, why must I try to outsmart and figure out my opponent's pattern when it is supposed to be a random outcome.
Not to mention that some people take ages at the start while checking your ygoscope which makes matches start after a minute or two in some cases. It's just not the best route in my honest opinion

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #18 by Renji Asuka » Fri May 01, 2020 12:25 am

Monarch Snow wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:>Wants to replace RPS with a dice roll simply cause RPS is too random

Bruh.....making it to a die roll is even more random....


I think you misunderstand the scenario. If anything, the exact opposite is being inferred.

Nah, Rock Paper Scissors has far more control compared to rolling a die which has a lot more different combinations, which makes it inherently more RNG. Its stupid to think otherwise.
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

Monarch Snow
User avatar
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 am
Reputation: 112

Post #19 by Monarch Snow » Fri May 01, 2020 12:28 am

Renji Asuka wrote:
Monarch Snow wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:>Wants to replace RPS with a dice roll simply cause RPS is too random

Bruh.....making it to a die roll is even more random....


I think you misunderstand the scenario. If anything, the exact opposite is being inferred.

Nah, Rock Paper Scissors has far more control compared to rolling a die which has a lot more different combinations, which makes it inherently more RNG. Its stupid to think otherwise.


The purpose for it is to be entirely random (as mentioned by several people above) and you just admitted that RPS is more controlled.......I'm failing to see where you're attempting to make a correlation. Total randomicity is endgame here. Please elaborate on your point-of-view.
RC-1, PC-1, & DC-1 Konami® Certified Judge
Retired Duelingbook Tournament Organizer
Retired Ozone Host/Administrator
Retired Judge in DU, DNx, /r/ Subrredit Discord, & The Ruling Zone
Founder of i3 & Harmonic Souls: Organized Play

Monarch Snow
User avatar
Posts: 595
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:43 am
Reputation: 112

Post #20 by Monarch Snow » Fri May 01, 2020 2:49 am

Another piece I wanted to bring to light was a conversation that I had with developers of YGO Omega, an up and coming simulator.
A simulator with a lot of popularity attached to its name. (Yes, it's automatic and manual.)

I asked the same question to their developers and a helper. Among the 4, 2 agreed with me, 2 didn't, but understood my approach.
AMM, the project Lead prefers RPS/Janken in disagreement with me.

AMM prefers RPS over die roll and prefers having it, BUT not having RPS recorded in replay exportation.
If they had to make pre-game public (when RPS would occur), then it would be exploitable.
Hence they themselves would rather go with die/dice.

[img]Redacted[/img]
[img]Redacted[/img]

NOTE: This statement does directly correlate to Suggestion A and provides a more probable solution to Suggestion B on privatized data.

Edit:
The images formerly available of the staff chat of Duelists Unite has been redacted per the request since they still don't want a staff channel leaked to avoid photoshop & misinformation, but they would still like to quote what I'm stating above is truthful in its entirety.
If you were quick to this thread or are a DB Staff, you can see such images still to corroborate my claim.
Last edited by Monarch Snow on Fri May 01, 2020 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
RC-1, PC-1, & DC-1 Konami® Certified Judge
Retired Duelingbook Tournament Organizer
Retired Ozone Host/Administrator
Retired Judge in DU, DNx, /r/ Subrredit Discord, & The Ruling Zone
Founder of i3 & Harmonic Souls: Organized Play


Return to “Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 115 guests