Competition on DB Rated

If you have a suggestion for the site, create a topic here and telll us about it
Sound4
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Reputation: 8

Re: Competition on DB Rated

Post #81 by Sound4 » Sun May 08, 2022 8:20 am

PENMASTER wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
greg503 wrote:I'd rather decide between 2 good cards than have mediocre cards like Unchained

Again Unchained is rogue and even better with a good pilot.

its really not it only looked decent because of coder and floodgates
no matter how good you are you wont consistently beat top tier decks

Have you beat any top tier decks with whatever deck you are using?

greg503
User avatar
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:43 pm
Reputation: 199
Location: Flundereeze

Post #82 by greg503 » Sun May 08, 2022 1:10 pm

Sound4 wrote:
PENMASTER wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Again Unchained is rogue and even better with a good pilot.

its really not it only looked decent because of coder and floodgates
no matter how good you are you wont consistently beat top tier decks

Have you beat any top tier decks with whatever deck you are using?

Yes, even Metaphys can get that lucky
Buy Floowandereeze

PENMASTER
User avatar
Posts: 613
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Reputation: 58

Post #83 by PENMASTER » Sun May 08, 2022 9:14 pm

Sound4 wrote:
PENMASTER wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Again Unchained is rogue and even better with a good pilot.

its really not it only looked decent because of coder and floodgates
no matter how good you are you wont consistently beat top tier decks

Have you beat any top tier decks with whatever deck you are using?

yes I go to my comp locals with d/d/d and consistently get fourth
love2hate

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #84 by Renji Asuka » Sun May 08, 2022 9:15 pm

PENMASTER wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
PENMASTER wrote:its really not it only looked decent because of coder and floodgates
no matter how good you are you wont consistently beat top tier decks

Have you beat any top tier decks with whatever deck you are using?

yes I go to my comp locals with d/d/d and consistently get fourth

Inb4 your locals consist of 10 people :P
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

PENMASTER
User avatar
Posts: 613
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Reputation: 58

Post #85 by PENMASTER » Sun May 08, 2022 9:29 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
PENMASTER wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Have you beat any top tier decks with whatever deck you are using?

yes I go to my comp locals with d/d/d and consistently get fourth

Inb4 your locals consist of 10 people :P

your somewhat close we normally get 14-16 people and everyone plays some rouge or meta deck except like 3 people
love2hate

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #86 by Renji Asuka » Sun May 08, 2022 9:48 pm

PENMASTER wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
PENMASTER wrote:yes I go to my comp locals with d/d/d and consistently get fourth

Inb4 your locals consist of 10 people :P

your somewhat close we normally get 14-16 people and everyone plays some rouge or meta deck except like 3 people

I was making a joke x)
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

Christen57
User avatar
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:37 pm
Reputation: 182
Location: New York, United States of America

Post #87 by Christen57 » Sun May 08, 2022 11:07 pm

Sound4 wrote:Plus I never said the only way Unchained can win is that people don't know the ins and outs it just gives you an advantage. Read properly. You are literally doing thee same in the silence is consent thread.


I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1s in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?

Plus Greg503 I am trying to get an answer from him since his points might be different.


It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.

itsmetristan wrote:Don't get me wrong, there are numerous decks where running Kaijus and such is beneficial, and even better than HT's, but looking at it on a base level, they aren't really better. It's format and deck dependant.


Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #88 by Renji Asuka » Sun May 08, 2022 11:49 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Plus I never said the only way Unchained can win is that people don't know the ins and outs it just gives you an advantage. Read properly. You are literally doing thee same in the silence is consent thread.


I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1s in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?

Plus Greg503 I am trying to get an answer from him since his points might be different.


It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.

itsmetristan wrote:Don't get me wrong, there are numerous decks where running Kaijus and such is beneficial, and even better than HT's, but looking at it on a base level, they aren't really better. It's format and deck dependant.


Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling Sound4 NOT to play Unchained, if he wants to play it more power to him.

Just want him to realize that his deck isn't as good as he thinks it is and understand why it'll struggle compared to actual rogue decks.
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

PENMASTER
User avatar
Posts: 613
Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 9:08 pm
Reputation: 58

Post #89 by PENMASTER » Mon May 09, 2022 12:05 am

Renji Asuka wrote:
PENMASTER wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:Inb4 your locals consist of 10 people :P

your somewhat close we normally get 14-16 people and everyone plays some rouge or meta deck except like 3 people

I was making a joke x)

i know I just wanna brag
love2hate

Sound4
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Reputation: 8

Post #90 by Sound4 » Mon May 09, 2022 6:26 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Plus I never said the only way Unchained can win is that people don't know the ins and outs it just gives you an advantage. Read properly. You are literally doing thee same in the silence is consent thread.


I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1s in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?

Plus Greg503 I am trying to get an answer from him since his points might be different.


It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.

itsmetristan wrote:Don't get me wrong, there are numerous decks where running Kaijus and such is beneficial, and even better than HT's, but looking at it on a base level, they aren't really better. It's format and deck dependant.


Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling Sound4 NOT to play Unchained, if he wants to play it more power to him.

Just want him to realize that his deck isn't as good as he thinks it is and understand why it'll struggle compared to actual rogue decks.

It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. You say it us bad in the grind game but most people don't know how to play the Deck correctly when it comes to the grind game.

Sound4
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Reputation: 8

Post #91 by Sound4 » Mon May 09, 2022 6:27 pm

PENMASTER wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
PENMASTER wrote:yes I go to my comp locals with d/d/d and consistently get fourth

Inb4 your locals consist of 10 people :P

your somewhat close we normally get 14-16 people and everyone plays some rouge or meta deck except like 3 people

Not impressive you are getting fourth with not even 30 people.

Sound4
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Reputation: 8

Post #92 by Sound4 » Mon May 09, 2022 6:39 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Plus I never said the only way Unchained can win is that people don't know the ins and outs it just gives you an advantage. Read properly. You are literally doing thee same in the silence is consent thread.


I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1s in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?

Plus Greg503 I am trying to get an answer from him since his points might be different.


It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.

itsmetristan wrote:Don't get me wrong, there are numerous decks where running Kaijus and such is beneficial, and even better than HT's, but looking at it on a base level, they aren't really better. It's format and deck dependant.


Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

What do you mean too many of its cards are bricks? The only grckis disaster which you run 1 that is it.

You can still use handyrap on your opponents turn. Fir example, your opponent has Apollousa on the fiels. Your normal summon a monster abs activate its effect. Opponent negated with Apollousa you can chain ogre to destroy and your effect resolves. Handraps can be ysed on your opponent's turn it just has to be used smartly.

As itsmetristan says it is format reliant. Board breaking stuff was really good in the format which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were dominanting. Handraps aren't necessarily effective but if you play so many of them they become effective. Cars like Dark ruler no more, Forbidden Droplet and Evenly match aren't bad but it isn't like the format where you could just activate one of those cards and win the game. Like I said earlier a lot of people are activating things in SP making Dark ruler mit as good and droplet if your opponent has a massive board you have to sacrifice most of your zarss except probably one and then a lot if people have been setting up snow in GY so set your monster face down.

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #93 by Renji Asuka » Mon May 09, 2022 6:57 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Plus I never said the only way Unchained can win is that people don't know the ins and outs it just gives you an advantage. Read properly. You are literally doing thee same in the silence is consent thread.


I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1s in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?

Plus Greg503 I am trying to get an answer from him since his points might be different.


It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.

itsmetristan wrote:Don't get me wrong, there are numerous decks where running Kaijus and such is beneficial, and even better than HT's, but looking at it on a base level, they aren't really better. It's format and deck dependant.


Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

What do you mean too many of its cards are bricks? The only grckis disaster which you run 1 that is it.

You can still use handyrap on your opponents turn. Fir example, your opponent has Apollousa on the fiels. Your normal summon a monster abs activate its effect. Opponent negated with Apollousa you can chain ogre to destroy and your effect resolves. Handraps can be ysed on your opponent's turn it just has to be used smartly.

As itsmetristan says it is format reliant. Board breaking stuff was really good in the format which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were dominanting. Handraps aren't necessarily effective but if you play so many of them they become effective. Cars like Dark ruler no more, Forbidden Droplet and Evenly match aren't bad but it isn't like the format where you could just activate one of those cards and win the game. Like I said earlier a lot of people are activating things in SP making Dark ruler mit as good and droplet if your opponent has a massive board you have to sacrifice most of your zarss except probably one and then a lot if people have been setting up snow in GY so set your monster face down.

Hand Traps don't help push for plays when going first. That is why they are bricks. You said that Unchained was a control deck, so by that logic, you want to go first, which makes hand traps less viable since they don't help you in setting up a board to actually control the opponent's plays.
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #94 by Renji Asuka » Mon May 09, 2022 6:58 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1s in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?



It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.



Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling Sound4 NOT to play Unchained, if he wants to play it more power to him.

Just want him to realize that his deck isn't as good as he thinks it is and understand why it'll struggle compared to actual rogue decks.

It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. You say it us bad in the grind game but most people don't know how to play the Deck correctly when it comes to the grind game.

"It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. " Non argument, you can say that about any deck and it'd be true. That doesn't exactly show us or convince us that Unchained is good, fun fact, if it was, it'd be topping Konami events here and there. It doesn't.
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

Christen57
User avatar
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 10:37 pm
Reputation: 182
Location: New York, United States of America

Post #95 by Christen57 » Tue May 10, 2022 12:45 am

Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Sound4 wrote:Plus I never said the only way Unchained can win is that people don't know the ins and outs it just gives you an advantage. Read properly. You are literally doing thee same in the silence is consent thread.


I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1 in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?

Plus Greg503 I am trying to get an answer from him since his points might be different.


It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.

itsmetristan wrote:Don't get me wrong, there are numerous decks where running Kaijus and such is beneficial, and even better than HT's, but looking at it on a base level, they aren't really better. It's format and deck dependant.


Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

What do you mean too many of its cards are bricks? The only grckis disaster which you run 1 that is it.


I said too many of it's main deck cards are either bricks or -1 in card advantage, not just that too many of it's cards are bricks. This means many of Unchained's main deck cards are -1 in card advantage, and most of the ones that aren't are too often bricks. Abominable is a -1 because it requires you to lose a card to be special summoned then discard another card just to destroy an opponent's card, Aruha and Rakea are -1 in card advantage and don't do enough to make up for it, Escape of the Unchained is a -1 in card advantage, and so on.

Fir example, your opponent has Apollousa on the fiels. Your normal summon a monster abs activate its effect. Opponent negated with Apollousa you can chain ogre to destroy and your effect resolves. Handraps can be ysed on your opponent's turn it just has to be used smartly.


And I explained why they're harder to use "smartly" than board-breakers.

As itsmetristan says it is format reliant. Board breaking stuff was really good in the format which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were dominanting. Handraps aren't necessarily effective but if you play so many of them they become effective.


If they either synergize with your deck, or aren't hard once per turn making it safe to draw multiple copies of them, then yes, they should be effective and worth maxing out on. However, there are 2 things that hurt hand traps' "effectiveness" in a deck like Unchained. First, hand traps tend to synergize best in decks that either can easily search/recycle them, or focus on 1-card plays, allowing the rest of the deck to be filled with hand traps. Examples of the first category are Blue-Eyes which can search out Effect Veiler due to it being a level 1 light tuner, as well as Lyrilusc which can search out D.D. Crow due to it being a level 1 winged beast. Examples of the second category would be decks like Invoked, Dogmatika, and Salamangreat. These decks tend to use engines small enough to be able to fit plenty of hand traps.

Neither of these seem to be the case with Unchained, and the archetype (at least from what I've seen in your replays) requires a lot of space for starters and engine requirements as it requires combinations of specific Unchained cards in hand to start any plays, so there doesn't appear to be much room in the deck you can safely dedicate to hand traps.

This brings me to my second reason why the effectiveness of hand traps is hurt in Unchained: Unchained struggles to capitalize on boards it uses hand traps to weaken. If you're going second, the opponent tries to combo off, and you play, for example, an Ash Blossom against one of their cards, even if it turned out to be the correct card to Ash and causes them to have to end their turn, if you can't then either FTK/OTK them, or set up a formidable board of your own, when your turn comes, there's nothing stopping them from simply continuing their combo where they left off when their next turn comes, rendering your efforts to hand trap them futile. If you hand trap the opponent 2/3 times, you have to follow it up with either an OTK or a strong enough board of your own (neither of which Unchained can easily or consistently pull off) to keep them from just picking up where they left off.

This reveals, yet again, another major advantage board-breakers have over hand traps: If the opponent starts a combo intending to go through half their extra deck or something by the time the combo is done, if you use a hand trap to slow down the combo, you then have to worry about doing something in your turn to ensure they can't continue where they left off and vomit out their extra deck in their next turn, but with a board-breaker, you can let them vomit their resources onto the board, then you can break that board, and because they've already burned through much of their resources, it'll be harder for them to combo again.

Cars like Dark ruler no more, Forbidden Droplet and Evenly match aren't bad but it isn't like the format where you could just activate one of those cards and win the game. Like I said earlier a lot of people are activating things in SP making Dark ruler mit as good and droplet if your opponent has a massive board you have to sacrifice most of your zarss except probably one and then a lot if people have been setting up snow in GY so set your monster face down.


You're right about Forbidden Droplet and Evenly Matched. I used to run Evenly Matched in my Pile deck until I realized it wasn't doing enough to help so I took it out.

Sound4
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Reputation: 8

Post #96 by Sound4 » Thu May 12, 2022 6:47 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling Sound4 NOT to play Unchained, if he wants to play it more power to him.

Just want him to realize that his deck isn't as good as he thinks it is and understand why it'll struggle compared to actual rogue decks.

It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. You say it us bad in the grind game but most people don't know how to play the Deck correctly when it comes to the grind game.

"It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. " Non argument, you can say that about any deck and it'd be true. That doesn't exactly show us or convince us that Unchained is good, fun fact, if it was, it'd be topping Konami events here and there. It doesn't.

Again the Deck doesn't have much representation.

Sound4
Posts: 921
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:58 pm
Reputation: 8

Post #97 by Sound4 » Thu May 12, 2022 6:50 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
I guess I should've worded my statement better. What I meant to say was, it's hardly a good strategy, or even a good mindset, to rely in any way on your opponent "not knowing" your archetype. I like to always assume my opponents will know, or at least end up figuring out quickly, some of my cards, combos, and other lines of play I may have in mind.

Sure, an opponent not knowing Unchained will make 'em more likely to waste a hand trap, negation, or disruption or something, on the wrong card/effect, but the question is, does that small advantage outweigh the major advantage Unchained still has of too many of it's cards being bricks or -1s in card advantage and too little of it's cards being +1 in card advantage?



It should be clear now that his points are pretty much the same as mine and Renji Asuka's — that Unchained's weaknesses outweigh it's strengths and that you're better off switching to a stronger deck.



Yeah, I may have been judging these hand traps more on how well they worked in my competitive deck than in the deck(s) Sound4 was playing. In this current format, my competitive deck of choice is what people call a "Pile" deck — a deck revolving around not any specific archetype but some random but powerful engines thrown together that happen to synergize with one another. https://www.reddit.com/r/Yugioh101/comments/t9wg62/ive_heard_the_term_pile_deck_being_thrown_around/

Pile decks allow room for creativity and variety, as different Pile decks can use different engine combinations. Some Pile decks like this one for example that somebody posted on ygoprodeck.com consist of a Rose Dragon engine, a Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine, an Adventurer Token engine, a Magicians' Souls engine, a P.U.N.K. engine, and a Small World engine, all put together to work in harmony.

My Pile deck utilizes the Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer engine (Fusion Destiny, Celestial, Dasher, and Verte Anaconda) for offense, a Mystic Mine engine (Mystic Mine, Demise of the Land, and Metaverse) for defense, and the Adventurer engine (Aramesir, Enchantress, Gryphon Rider, Fateful Adventure, and Dracoback) for support. However, instead of hand traps, I chose to max out on Lava Golem, Dark Ruler, Ra Sphere Mode, Alpha, Pankratops, and Lightning Storm. These cards proved to be better in a deck like mine because they synergized with my deck better than hand traps. Lava Golem and Sphere Mode, for example, both eat up my normal summon, while the Adventurer engine disallows my normal summoned monsters' effects, but those restrictions barely affect me since my deck hardly cares about normal summoning.

Unchained, however, relies far more on normal summoning, in order to begin any plays, than my deck does, making it far riskier to run board-breakers or the Adventurer engine in that deck, so, for Unchained, hand traps are probably indeed the best option. My only concern is, if Sound4's going to run hand traps, the only hand traps good running 3 of are the ones that aren't hard once per turn, are crazy powerful like how powerful Maxx "C" was when that card was still legal, or actually synergize with the deck, like how Nibiru often synergized with Rock decks since it could be searched off of Gallant Granite, or how Ash Blossom often synergized with Salamangreats due to being recyclable with Sunlight Wolf, or how Ghost Ogre often synergized with Psychic decks due to being searchable off of Emergency Teleport.

Now, earlier, I mentioned one major advantage a board-breaker like Dark Ruler No More or Lava Golem has over a hand trap: Usually, with a board-breaker (assuming you're going second of course), you have 6 chances to draw it whereas with a hand trap, you have only 5 chances. When going second, whatever hand trap you're running needs to be seen among your first 5 cards in your opening hand for you to be able to stop an opponent's combo. If you instead draw that hand trap during your turn as your 6th card, it'll likely be too late then as the opponent has already assembled their board. With a board-breaker, however, you can either have it in your opening hand among your 5 cards or draw it as your 6th card in your turn, making it more consistent and forgiving than a hand trap, which is especially important for Pile decks as Pile decks often exceed 40 cards in the main deck, hurting chances of seeing the hand trap(s) in the opening hand.

However, I forgot to mention 2 other major advantages a board-breaker tends to have over a hand trap. First, board-breakers are a bit harder to stop/counter than hand traps. Decks like Swordsoul or Mythical Beast, or decks that run Terrortop/Taketomborg and Small World, or the Adventurer Engine, will often have a negate ready by their 5th summon to stop Nibiru, Called by the Grave stops hand traps that put themselves in the grave to activate, Sauravis stops hand traps that target and is searchable off of Preparation of Rites, Dinosaur decks can use Lost World to put a token on the opponent's field to stop Gamma and Imperm, Warrior decks can use Aqua Dolphin (which is searchable with Neo Space Connector which is searchable with Reinforcement of the Army) to take out hand traps with low ATK, WATER decks have Deep Sea Minstrel which temporarily removes hand traps, and some decks run enough extenders to let them shrug off a hand trap or two and assemble a board regardless. Dark Ruler No More cares about none of this.

Second, when it comes to board-breakers, you get to wait until after the opponent has invested much of their hand into their combo before you begin investing your board-breakers and hand into answering their board. This is important because, with each card you see them play to assemble their board, you're getting more information on their cards and deck before they've gotten any information on your cards. With a hand trap, it's more of a gamble. If it's the first turn, you open up with Ash Blossom, your opponent's going first, and the first card they play is something like Quick Launch or Emergency Teleport, do you Ash that spell, or do you let it resolve and wait for them to play an even stronger card then Ash that? What if that Quick Launch/Emergency Teleport was their strongest card while the other cards in their hand were bricks or something and you now missed a golden opportunity to use your Ash? Keep in mind they haven't yet normal summoned or played any other cards, so what if you Ash that spell but it turns out they were just using that to bait out an Ash, and then they start normal summoning and playing their stronger card(s) you wish you saved your Ash for? Now you've given them crucial information about what you're playing before they've given you much information about what they're playing, putting yourself at a disadvantage, and, you wasted a hand trap, putting yourself further at a disadvantage.

In competitive yugioh, it's generally a good a idea to save your disruptions/board-breakers until the last moment in which you can and should use them, like how players would often flip Mystical Space Typhoon to destroy backrow in the end phase instead of the main phase, or use ATK-modifying effects in the damage step if possible, instead of the battle step. With an Ash Blossom, it's harder to determine when that "last moment in which you can and should use them" will be, but with board-breakers, it's easier to figure out when to use those — during your turn against an already-assembled board since you've already seen much of their cards and thus have enough information (on what the opponent's playing) to make an informed decision, whereas with hand traps, it's trickier because the opponent often hasn't yet played enough cards to give you such information for you to make an informed decision, meaning you'll have to guess if that card you wish to Ash is the best Ash-target at that moment or if the opponent just wants you to waste Ash on that card so they can then play their stronger card(s) without worrying about an Ash.
When I play a board-breaker knowing my opponent has already vomited their hand onto the field to do their combo to assemble that board, I'm playing that board-breaker knowing I most likely won't have to worry about any additional extenders or tricks up my opponents' sleeves for a while, but with a hand trap, I have to do this awkward guessing-game thing where I have to either use my hand trap immediately, hoping it's the right time to use it and that the opponent has no further extenders or stronger cards I would've wanted to use my hand trap on, or hold onto my hand trap, hoping my opponent doesn't seize the opportunity to bring out a negate such as Herald of the Arc Light or Apollousa afterwards to keep me from ever using my hand trap. If I guess wrong in either case, I'll most likely lose as my opponent will continue to build up their board until it's too difficult to break. This issue is less likely to occur when I rely on actual board-breakers, and more likely to occur when I rely on hand traps that stop the opponent from combo-ing off only if you guess correctly.

What do you mean too many of its cards are bricks? The only grckis disaster which you run 1 that is it.

You can still use handyrap on your opponents turn. Fir example, your opponent has Apollousa on the fiels. Your normal summon a monster abs activate its effect. Opponent negated with Apollousa you can chain ogre to destroy and your effect resolves. Handraps can be ysed on your opponent's turn it just has to be used smartly.

As itsmetristan says it is format reliant. Board breaking stuff was really good in the format which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were dominanting. Handraps aren't necessarily effective but if you play so many of them they become effective. Cars like Dark ruler no more, Forbidden Droplet and Evenly match aren't bad but it isn't like the format where you could just activate one of those cards and win the game. Like I said earlier a lot of people are activating things in SP making Dark ruler mit as good and droplet if your opponent has a massive board you have to sacrifice most of your zarss except probably one and then a lot if people have been setting up snow in GY so set your monster face down.

Hand Traps don't help push for plays when going first. That is why they are bricks. You said that Unchained was a control deck, so by that logic, you want to go first, which makes hand traps less viable since they don't help you in setting up a board to actually control the opponent's plays.

They are definitely not bricks going first. You clearly don't kniw much about this format. Those handraps are simply extra firms if disruption when you do your combo and end your turn. Plus yes Unchained is a control deck but traps don't do much against the Adventure Token decks so it isn't the most optimal.

greg503
User avatar
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:43 pm
Reputation: 199
Location: Flundereeze

Post #98 by greg503 » Thu May 12, 2022 7:54 pm

Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. You say it us bad in the grind game but most people don't know how to play the Deck correctly when it comes to the grind game.

"It doesn't struggle against most decks if you play the Deck correctly. " Non argument, you can say that about any deck and it'd be true. That doesn't exactly show us or convince us that Unchained is good, fun fact, if it was, it'd be topping Konami events here and there. It doesn't.

Again the Deck doesn't have much representation.

And why doesn't it have much representation? That's right, because it's bad and doesn't win
Buy Floowandereeze

Renji Asuka
User avatar
Posts: 2680
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:37 am
Reputation: 242

Post #99 by Renji Asuka » Fri May 13, 2022 9:16 am

Sound4 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:
Sound4 wrote:What do you mean too many of its cards are bricks? The only grckis disaster which you run 1 that is it.

You can still use handyrap on your opponents turn. Fir example, your opponent has Apollousa on the fiels. Your normal summon a monster abs activate its effect. Opponent negated with Apollousa you can chain ogre to destroy and your effect resolves. Handraps can be ysed on your opponent's turn it just has to be used smartly.

As itsmetristan says it is format reliant. Board breaking stuff was really good in the format which Swordsoul and Lyrilusc Tri Brigade were dominanting. Handraps aren't necessarily effective but if you play so many of them they become effective. Cars like Dark ruler no more, Forbidden Droplet and Evenly match aren't bad but it isn't like the format where you could just activate one of those cards and win the game. Like I said earlier a lot of people are activating things in SP making Dark ruler mit as good and droplet if your opponent has a massive board you have to sacrifice most of your zarss except probably one and then a lot if people have been setting up snow in GY so set your monster face down.

Hand Traps don't help push for plays when going first. That is why they are bricks. You said that Unchained was a control deck, so by that logic, you want to go first, which makes hand traps less viable since they don't help you in setting up a board to actually control the opponent's plays.

They are definitely not bricks going first. You clearly don't kniw much about this format. Those handraps are simply extra firms if disruption when you do your combo and end your turn. Plus yes Unchained is a control deck but traps don't do much against the Adventure Token decks so it isn't the most optimal.

It's almost like you didn't read what I stated.

If they don't push for combo, they are bricks.

It's almost like you're being disingenuous.

The reason why the deck isn't represented btw. IS BECAUSE THE DECK IS TRASH.
Image
Showing people that I'm The King of Games since September 30, 1996.

greg503
User avatar
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:43 pm
Reputation: 199
Location: Flundereeze

Post #100 by greg503 » Fri May 13, 2022 4:28 pm

Metagame rule number 1: People want to win
Metagame rule number 2: Something that wins is good, and people will attempt to counter it. The best things will thusly be what wins through most used counters to the strategy.
Metagame rule number 3: People will use the best things, the best things are now good, ignore what rule 2 said about things being good.
Unchained is bad QED
Buy Floowandereeze


Return to “Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 146 guests