Delete Custom Cards Format for Good. (Formerly: Establish an Automatic Custom Card Review System)

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parhelia_0000
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Delete Custom Cards Format for Good. (Formerly: Establish an Automatic Custom Card Review System)

Post #1 by parhelia_0000 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:13 pm

I'm sure so many people are starting to get sick and tired of people who are making it impossible for us to create balanced custom cards without getting wrecked by random opponents who bring in overpowered decks. Unless you're always playing against a specific group of people, it's never gonna be possible for custom cards to be balanced.

That is, unless the DB staff team implements a system to put a stop to these stupid custom cards, once and for all.

Yes, I know I do tend to make meta-based archetypes; however, it's not without reason. You guys have to understand that I build custom decks while taking into account the possibility that I may have to deal with that random custom card player who brings in a deck that just cannot be negated in any ways possible. You can only block those people so many times to the point where it becomes difficult to find people to play custom cards against, and there's only so many times that one can ask the opponent to bring balanced custom cards, only to get scammed with an OP board.

As long as an automated system is not put in place, we'll always have to put up with players like CrystalMusic and Chaosprince who ruin the custom card format for the rest of us, forcing people like me to build decks with tier 0 meta in mind just to have a chance at beating them.

In order to put a stop to this, here's my suggestion as follows. I will only agree to balance my cards and re-release them as tamed tier 1 decks, only if the following conditions are met:
1. Implement a way to either enforce proper PSCT (by using automated pre-fill responses to force people to follow the proper PSCT and having a word count limit per card), or hand-pick mods who are qualified to check the PSCT of such cards. My hope is that by doing so, we won't have to teach people how to write PSCT as the automated system will force people to do it the right way, and beginners can't make mistakes.
2. Auto-delete/purge custom cards that resemble any of the following (Initiate a full purge of custom cards if you must. I'm willing to remake my custom cards from scratch if it means ensuring that these cards never come back into the custom card pool ever again.):
-Remakes of TCG/OCG cards, and/or anime cards (either by artwork, name, effect description, etc.) - These types of cards are what ruin character duels for me in custom duels.
-Insta-win/"unaffected by all other card effects" cards that are way too cheap to use. If it becomes obvious that you don't have to work so hard for an insta-win card, then those cards have no business being in the custom card pool
-Troll/meme cards that contain effects that do not relate to the duel whatsoever. I've dealt with this at one point where someone made a card that turns the opposing player into a femboy. Seriously, WTF? Need proof? Watch this replay: https://www.duelingbook.com/replay?id=37528-35955870
-"At the start of the Duel" cards. Nobody wants to read effects that apply at the start of the duel. (Yes, CrystalMusic, I'm talking about you!) Same applies to the "Annoying Dog" cards - once the stupid cards are purged from the system, there will no longer be a need (hopefully) for anyone to compromise on extra deck space JUST to use these cards.
3. Expand enforcement of banning inappropriate custom cards to private custom cards as well. There used to be a player in the custom card pool who used a bunch of custom cards containing pictures that showed men who held real-life firearms. I'm not sure if this person continues to play custom cards, but if yes, then this is a major cause for concern because it means that players have a way to circumvent the rules in order to continue creating inappropriate custom cards while retaining their ability to create custom cards. By expanding this rule to private cards as well, we're effectively closing off any and all potential loopholes for people to utilize in order to make inappropriate custom cards.

Yes, I know custom cards are not considered official TCG or OCG formats; however, that doesn't mean that these cards should be allowed to just rampage the entire format and make custom card creators like myself look bad.

Ultimately, however, the choice is yours. We could spend the rest of our custom card hobby making tier 0 decks just to be able to survive the toxic format that'll never be balanced, OR we could go the "push comes to shove" route and start cracking down on this to put an end to these ridiculous custom cards.

EDIT: After careful consideration as well as discussion with other members of DB, it's become clear that the toxicity within the custom card format will never end. The only way to break the chain of toxicity at this point is to delete the custom card format for good. As long as custom card format continues to have toxic members who make the format unenjoyable for everyone else, the format will never be balanced.

At this point, my suggestion is now officially amended to: Delete the custom card format for good, please. Yugitubers like dzeff have already figured it out by now that the toxicity of the custom card format will never end. Try to make cards that counter the bullshit cards? Opponent will just keep on making BS cards to counter the anti-counter cards, and the cycle will never end.

This amendment to the suggestion is not made lightly. Admins, and Xteven, please seriously take a look into this issue and consider.
Last edited by parhelia_0000 on Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post #2 by PENMASTER » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:00 pm

nice wall but this is litteraly impossible people cant check the cards and a ai to check thats 50 years away and pre filled responces or whatever with certain effects that could work but specific effects are just impossible with odd wording and other stuff we all know those especialy if someone makes inspector boarder the second coming
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Post #3 by PENMASTER » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:03 pm

PENMASTER wrote:nice wall but this is literally impossible people cant check the cards and a ai to check thats 50 years away and pre filled responses or whatever with certain effects that could work but specific effects are just impossible with odd wording and other stuff we all know those especially if someone makes inspector boarder the second coming

this issue is almost impossible to fix to me unless you just stop every idiot from making customs cards and hell playing the game in general im totally ok with that but that doesn't really work either
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Post #4 by parhelia_0000 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:16 pm

In that case let's add another suggestion to what I've presented.

4. Auto-delete any card that supports TCG/OCG archetypes that are already made. We already have enough problems in the TCG with Dragoon and Drytron. Nobody wants to see those archetypes being supported in the custom format.

And it is possible to fix. It does require a lot of effort, but it all comes down to whether the admins of DB want to see custom cards become a healthy format again, or if they've given up on custom card balance at this point and they might as well allow custom card format to literally become "degenerate" format.

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Post #5 by Lil Oldman » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:14 pm

It never was a healthy format, and it never was supposed. I remember that Genex at some point stated that "Customs are just the owners toy." They were made to be just some funny haha's, a couple matches with friends, and even the cutting floor for brand new TCG's, but not a format to be taken seriously.
On the actual suggestion, programming an AI that can tell apart broken from balanced cards is really difficult, not to mention it couldn't easily tell apart from busted cards (i.e. cards that have incredible potential when used right or that are waiting for that big boom, think Snake Rain).
It is imposible to separate regular TCG/OCG from customs unless you disallowed the cards from being in the same deck, generic cards, or even not so strict in-archetype cards can unexpectedly support other decks.
It would be ideal to have a Custom format, but the scope of the idea is just way to big and hard to manage, there's a reason most Custom Discord Servers don't succeed.
Additionally, having an "Authorized" custom format wouldn't be ideal. With the sheer amount of Customs that are uploaded each day, you cannot guarantee broken cards wouldn't slip the radar, and if they actually don't then you have extremely long queues just to get a couple of cards approved.
Don't take this as "I don't want this" I think this would be perfect for people who are pationate about customs like me, rocket, Parhelia or otherwise, but this suggestion is way to "utopic" to actually be do-able. If a couple servers struggle to keep a balanced format, I doubt a full-scale project like this would go any differently.
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Post #6 by parhelia_0000 » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:34 pm

Lil Oldman wrote:It never was a healthy format, and it never was supposed. I remember that Genex at some point stated that "Customs are just the owners toy." They were made to be just some funny haha's, a couple matches with friends, and even the cutting floor for brand new TCG's, but not a format to be taken seriously.
On the actual suggestion, programming an AI that can tell apart broken from balanced cards is really difficult, not to mention it couldn't easily tell apart from busted cards (i.e. cards that have incredible potential when used right or that are waiting for that big boom, think Snake Rain).
It is imposible to separate regular TCG/OCG from customs unless you disallowed the cards from being in the same deck, generic cards, or even not so strict in-archetype cards can unexpectedly support other decks.
It would be ideal to have a Custom format, but the scope of the idea is just way to big and hard to manage, there's a reason most Custom Discord Servers don't succeed.
Additionally, having an "Authorized" custom format wouldn't be ideal. With the sheer amount of Customs that are uploaded each day, you cannot guarantee broken cards wouldn't slip the radar, and if they actually don't then you have extremely long queues just to get a couple of cards approved.
Don't take this as "I don't want this" I think this would be perfect for people who are pationate about customs like me, rocket, Parhelia or otherwise, but this suggestion is way to "utopic" to actually be do-able. If a couple servers struggle to keep a balanced format, I doubt a full-scale project like this would go any differently.

I figured as much that things would be going this way. I was right all along, custom card formats can never be balanced because of how everyone's making broken cards nowadays with different views of balance.

Well, looks like I won't be balancing my cards anytime soon...unfortunate that people have to make broken cards just to survive custom format, really.

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Post #7 by Wek » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:54 pm

This thread implies there is a format for the custom box in the same way as there is one for the advanced box. There is not.
This thread implies there is an objective balance of power level for said format, which given it doesn't exist, there isn't.
Duelingbook allows players to create their own cards, no limit to power, no concern about a banlist, etc.

So play with your friends, design your own format, maybe recreate an older format except with readable cards now that PSCT exists. You could use your customs to make a format as powerful as 2002, or one where FTKs hang at the edge using hand traps and potential unheard of defenses that would be too insane for the modern advanced format to consider but make sense, or might even be necessary for that given format because of the way its cardpool was made to work. Both could be perfectly healthy formats if designed properly, or utter garbage if not. Neither would make sense in the modern game because the cardpool is set to a different scale of power entirely.

Playing with random players with you using your own custom cards and them using theirs no knowledge of what the other person made is a fairly ludicrous concept if you expect there to be any semblance of balance. There would be no reason to expect any, because each player made their cardpool with no knowledge, and therefore no practical intentions, that would plausibly make their decks balance out with each other. Anytime it does happen is just an accident, it just happened to work out that way.

Context is a major part of card design. The exact same card can be excellent design in one cardpool and atrocious design in another. What a player makes for their customs cannot be set against the entire custom cardpool of the past and future. A format is made with a given cardpool, understood by the players using it for the given format. Players that adhere to the idea that custom cards can be played the same way as the advanced format and just jump in and play anyone have only themselves to blame, because unlike the Advanced Format, where players understand what cards are available and how new cards are introduced, no such system exists in the entirely of the custom cardpool, and there is no reason for it to. Customs are not a single format, but a setting under which many formats can be custom-made. After that, it's only as good as the players designing and playing it.

Inappropriate cards breaking the rules of DB are a matter for DB moderation. Report those things and move on.

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Post #8 by CustomWalker » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:52 am

I play multible custom formats, all with there own custom banlist.
sometimes you need to designe support for allready existing archtypes, since some cards of that archtype are banned by the custom banlist, to creat a healthyer format overall.

Of corse i dont know what you think would be a "balanced" format, but im pretty sure i would disagree with you here.
Thats another problem with balancing custom cards.
Who would know what cards are balanced or not?
-DB stuff?
-Players with 1500+ rating?

As Wek sayed:
Context is a major part of card designe.

It would be really sad to destroy some perfectly "balanced" and fair custom decks/archtypes/formats, just so someone could play randoms on DB.

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Post #9 by parhelia_0000 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:54 am

See, these comments that others make regarding context make me wonder if custom card format was a mistake to begin with for DB. Part of me begins to wonder if we wouldn't have had to deal with people like CrystalMusic and Chaosprince had custom cards not been a thing in the first place.

I don't know, what do you guys think?

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Post #10 by Lil Oldman » Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:15 am

parhelia_0000 wrote:See, these comments that others make regarding context make me wonder if custom card format was a mistake to begin with for DB. Part of me begins to wonder if we wouldn't have had to deal with people like CrystalMusic and Chaosprince had custom cards not been a thing in the first place.

I don't know, what do you guys think?

Custom Cards have always been a thing, even way before dB made them a thing. Now, toxicity has always been a thing in any comunity, and just because a couple toxic users banish from the community because their "gimmick" is gone, doesn't mean other users will appear to replace them.
I don't think Customs were a mistake, they allow for so much creativity and are such a powerful tool, both for casual/regular players looking for a fun time, aswell as for game card designers, this may be the first experience for lots of people in game design, it sure was mine.
In my personal experience, I would have never have come here to the forums or dB in general if it wasn't for custom cards and I consider this community to be really cool. Using the custom card functionality has been the most fun I have had in most websites in recent years, even if I never end up playing the game myself.
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Post #11 by Renji Asuka » Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:00 am

Realistically, all your suggestions are completely impractical.

Everyone has a different idea of "balance".

While yet it sucks that people still somehow don't know proper PSCT. You don't have to play against those players.
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Post #12 by The_Criator » Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:24 pm

I understand what you want. Like me you want people make decent custom cards. But that is kinda impossible tbh. The staff would scan through thousands and thousands of customs cards that are created at each minute. That is just impossible. And if you put a bot to do it, how it would do that? It would must to have an selfconsience about OP and some people would think that it is unffer.
But the auto PSCT thing would be nice, if optional like
You just write "You can only"
Then appears options like
"You can only use each effect of "..." once per turn"
"You can only control 1 "...""
"You can only use each of the followings effects of "..." once per turn."
Etc
That would be nice
Sorry for the english, im brazilian

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Post #13 by CustomWalker » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:20 pm

I made custom yugioh (and other TCGs) cards years before DB put this features into place.

Its so nice to test your cutom cards on DB before printing them out irl.
I also only come here to play and test custom cards with friends for over 2 years now :D

so pls just let me have fun with my friends playing our own cards.
If there would be a form of restriction on the custom card designe, it would almost make this feature useless to me, since i designe some wild stuff from time to time, to explore the boundries of this game, and my friends love it.

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Post #14 by Genexwrecker » Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:32 pm

No
Official Duelingbook Support staff
Official Duelingbook Resource Judge
Official Duelingbook Tournament Admin.(Other tournament Admin is Runzy)

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Post #15 by parhelia_0000 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:03 pm

Renji Asuka wrote:Realistically, all your suggestions are completely impractical.

Everyone has a different idea of "balance".

While yet it sucks that people still somehow don't know proper PSCT. You don't have to play against those players.

You have to understand the logistics though. There's only so many times that one person can block people who refuse to learn PSCT, there's only so many times that you can try to avoid unfair players, and there's only so many times that one can ask other people not to make insta-win cards.

But I do agree, it's come to a point where balance no longer exists in the custom format that you have no other options but to make tier 0-level meta decks just to survive in that format.

The_Criator wrote:I understand what you want. Like me you want people make decent custom cards. But that is kinda impossible tbh. The staff would scan through thousands and thousands of customs cards that are created at each minute. That is just impossible. And if you put a bot to do it, how it would do that? It would must to have an selfconsience about OP and some people would think that it is unffer.
But the auto PSCT thing would be nice, if optional like
You just write "You can only"
Then appears options like
"You can only use each effect of "..." once per turn"
"You can only control 1 "...""
"You can only use each of the followings effects of "..." once per turn."
Etc
That would be nice
Sorry for the english, im brazilian


You know what I'd love to see as well? A pop-up screen that shows a warning if one tries to make insta-win cards or "unaffected by all other card effects" bullshit, which warns the custom card creator that their card can be seen as ridiculous by the rest of the DB community.

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Post #16 by Wek » Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:37 pm

parhelia_0000 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:Realistically, all your suggestions are completely impractical.

Everyone has a different idea of "balance".

While yet it sucks that people still somehow don't know proper PSCT. You don't have to play against those players.

You have to understand the logistics though. There's only so many times that one person can block people who refuse to learn PSCT, there's only so many times that you can try to avoid unfair players, and there's only so many times that one can ask other people not to make insta-win cards.

But I do agree, it's come to a point where balance no longer exists in the custom format that you have no other options but to make tier 0-level meta decks just to survive in that format.

The_Criator wrote:I understand what you want. Like me you want people make decent custom cards. But that is kinda impossible tbh. The staff would scan through thousands and thousands of customs cards that are created at each minute. That is just impossible. And if you put a bot to do it, how it would do that? It would must to have an selfconsience about OP and some people would think that it is unffer.
But the auto PSCT thing would be nice, if optional like
You just write "You can only"
Then appears options like
"You can only use each effect of "..." once per turn"
"You can only control 1 "...""
"You can only use each of the followings effects of "..." once per turn."
Etc
That would be nice
Sorry for the english, im brazilian


You know what I'd love to see as well? A pop-up screen that shows a warning if one tries to make insta-win cards or "unaffected by all other card effects" bullshit, which warns the custom card creator that their card can be seen as ridiculous by the rest of the DB community.


You keep talking about a nonsense format and then acting like it's somehow relevant to the nature of customs. You're causing your own problems on this. There is no "being competitive" or "surviving" that silliness. If players aren't using PSCT, don't play them. If players are playing troll cards, don't play them either. If you want to be another troll and use the very things you consider insanity, well fine, that's your problem. The people using customs properly don't need to care, because they won't have to deal with you or any of the other trolls of customs. They just ignore this make-believe format.

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Post #17 by parhelia_0000 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 5:46 pm

Wek wrote:
parhelia_0000 wrote:
Renji Asuka wrote:Realistically, all your suggestions are completely impractical.

Everyone has a different idea of "balance".

While yet it sucks that people still somehow don't know proper PSCT. You don't have to play against those players.

You have to understand the logistics though. There's only so many times that one person can block people who refuse to learn PSCT, there's only so many times that you can try to avoid unfair players, and there's only so many times that one can ask other people not to make insta-win cards.

But I do agree, it's come to a point where balance no longer exists in the custom format that you have no other options but to make tier 0-level meta decks just to survive in that format.

The_Criator wrote:I understand what you want. Like me you want people make decent custom cards. But that is kinda impossible tbh. The staff would scan through thousands and thousands of customs cards that are created at each minute. That is just impossible. And if you put a bot to do it, how it would do that? It would must to have an selfconsience about OP and some people would think that it is unffer.
But the auto PSCT thing would be nice, if optional like
You just write "You can only"
Then appears options like
"You can only use each effect of "..." once per turn"
"You can only control 1 "...""
"You can only use each of the followings effects of "..." once per turn."
Etc
That would be nice
Sorry for the english, im brazilian


You know what I'd love to see as well? A pop-up screen that shows a warning if one tries to make insta-win cards or "unaffected by all other card effects" bullshit, which warns the custom card creator that their card can be seen as ridiculous by the rest of the DB community.


You keep talking about a nonsense format and then acting like it's somehow relevant to the nature of customs. You're causing your own problems on this. There is no "being competitive" or "surviving" that silliness. If players aren't using PSCT, don't play them. If players are playing troll cards, don't play them either. If you want to be another troll and use the very things you consider insanity, well fine, that's your problem. The people using customs properly don't need to care, because they won't have to deal with you or any of the other trolls of customs. They just ignore this make-believe format.

Alright, so fuck balance, let's just make insta-win cards that just basically say "Fuck you" to the opponent whenever we play customs.

This is a joke. I'm done.

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Post #18 by ominous » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:11 pm

>Customs
Bad.
Dont be stupid, Stupid.

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Post #19 by Levionia » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:38 pm

While i agree, you can't police who does and does not get to make customs. You say the "logistics of blocking people who refuse to learn psct/balancing their cards is impossible" but youre suggesting we implement futuristic A.I.s and police custom cards which on top of being impossible, shows a level of distrust towards other custom card creators, and who gets to decide what is balanced?

While i agree, custom pools are being ruined by people who dont know how to make customs, we cant police it, what we should do is organize a review board with the larger custom communities to approve/deny cards by vote, if we can gain enough influence in the custom card community, soon everyone will either be playing approved cards, or not at all.

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Post #20 by parhelia_0000 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:50 pm

Levionia wrote:While i agree, you can't police who does and does not get to make customs. You say the "logistics of blocking people who refuse to learn psct/balancing their cards is impossible" but youre suggesting we implement futuristic A.I.s and police custom cards which on top of being impossible, shows a level of distrust towards other custom card creators, and who gets to decide what is balanced?

While i agree, custom pools are being ruined by people who dont know how to make customs, we cant police it, what we should do is organize a review board with the larger custom communities to approve/deny cards by vote, if we can gain enough influence in the custom card community, soon everyone will either be playing approved cards, or not at all.

Might be a good alternative, but I highly doubt we'll be garnering any influence for this in a positive way, given the fact that the custom card community has already been tarnished so badly...


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