Possibility to defend myself when I get a slow play warning

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Apoptosis
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Possibility to defend myself when I get a slow play warning

Post #1 by Apoptosis » Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:36 am

I was shocked to receive a slow play warning from the judge, as I thought it was very unwarranted. However, the judge didn't allow me to defend myself or object. (After I said: "I am trying to formulate my objection in my head" the judge said "The warning stands.") And when I asked for options to appeal, the judge said "I don't see any reason to involve another judge currently so I'll be denying it".

Is the judge acting according to official policy? So is it true that if one player accuses the other player of slow play, and the judge gives a warning accordingly, that the accused/warned player doesn't have a right to defend him/herself?

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Post #2 by greg503 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:01 am

Do you have the replay where this occurred?
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Post #3 by Genexwrecker » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:08 am

https://www.duelingbook.com/log?id=29838777

you were taking forver to toss a coin and there is no reason for that so you got a warning for slowplay for not tossing a coin for your effect.
Your opponent should have gotten a warning as they paused the game when they wanted it to play faster.
warnings cannot be appealed.

There is really nothing to defend here you werent resolving the effect.
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Post #4 by Apoptosis » Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:24 pm

You don't see a reason, but all humans are fallible. There is always a possibility that there is something that you do not know or do not see at the moment of judging. So I think it is wise to let the person who would be victim of the punishment to explain themselves.

I do think there is a good reason in this scenario for me to take as long as I did to toss the coin. But I don't think that is the main point here. I think the main point here is that I wasn't given the option to share that reason with the judge. And I think that anyone in this position should be given that option.

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Post #5 by Renji Asuka » Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:01 pm

Apoptosis wrote:You don't see a reason, but all humans are fallible. There is always a possibility that there is something that you do not know or do not see at the moment of judging. So I think it is wise to let the person who would be victim of the punishment to explain themselves.

I do think there is a good reason in this scenario for me to take as long as I did to toss the coin. But I don't think that is the main point here. I think the main point here is that I wasn't given the option to share that reason with the judge. And I think that anyone in this position should be given that option.

Or you know, when a judge tells you to do something, you do it. If you believe a judge to be wrong, you can appeal, but in this situation, you were in the wrong.
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Post #6 by robinatk » Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:07 pm

Is there a reason for this thread? A warning is only for that match. The match is over.
Side note, still yet to give a reason to appeal the warning. Troll? Victim complex?

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Post #7 by Genexwrecker » Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:32 pm

There is no viable reason for the action of not tossing the coin when given permission to do so. At that point any discussion involving an excuse for said actions would extend the call needlessly. Anyway the warning isnt a big deal and expires when the game ends.
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Post #8 by Christen57 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:39 pm

Genexwrecker wrote:There is no viable reason for the action of not tossing the coin when given permission to do so. At that point any discussion involving an excuse for said actions would extend the call needlessly. Anyway the warning isnt a big deal and expires when the game ends.


It does? I thought warnings remain on your account or something so that even days or weeks later judges can go back and see what kinds of warnings you got in previous rated games. I've seen judges come to a rated duel, they decide to issue a warning to an offending player for some kind of bad behavior, but then they said they looked at said offending player's "history" and see that they repeated similar behavior days prior so they immediately upgrade the warning to a loss.

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Post #9 by Christen57 » Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:52 pm

Apoptosis wrote:You don't see a reason, but all humans are fallible. There is always a possibility that there is something that you do not know or do not see at the moment of judging. So I think it is wise to let the person who would be victim of the punishment to explain themselves.

I do think there is a good reason in this scenario for me to take as long as I did to toss the coin. But I don't think that is the main point here. I think the main point here is that I wasn't given the option to share that reason with the judge. And I think that anyone in this position should be given that option.


What is your so-called "good reason in this scenario" for not tossing a coin when required?

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Post #10 by Genexwrecker » Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:25 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Genexwrecker wrote:There is no viable reason for the action of not tossing the coin when given permission to do so. At that point any discussion involving an excuse for said actions would extend the call needlessly. Anyway the warning isnt a big deal and expires when the game ends.


It does? I thought warnings remain on your account or something so that even days or weeks later judges can go back and see what kinds of warnings you got in previous rated games. I've seen judges come to a rated duel, they decide to issue a warning to an offending player for some kind of bad behavior, but then they said they looked at said offending player's "history" and see that they repeated similar behavior days prior so they immediately upgrade the warning to a loss.

Things like slowplay minor and pe minor and even majors are in game only.
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Post #11 by Apoptosis » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:09 pm

robinatk wrote:Is there a reason for this thread? A warning is only for that match. The match is over.
Side note, still yet to give a reason to appeal the warning. Troll? Victim complex?


When I received the warning, I didn't know its effect would only last for the match. I felt wronged. The judge left without a warning, so I couldn't ask him/her what the warning meant.

I wanted to appeal the warning because I thought it was unjustified. Now, appealing the warning no longer makes sense. My goal for this thread is that all judges in the future will give the (about to be) penalized player a chance to defend him/herself when he/she asks for one.

('Victim complex' would be a cause, not a reason.)

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Post #12 by Apoptosis » Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:17 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Apoptosis wrote:You don't see a reason, but all humans are fallible. There is always a possibility that there is something that you do not know or do not see at the moment of judging. So I think it is wise to let the person who would be victim of the punishment to explain themselves.

I do think there is a good reason in this scenario for me to take as long as I did to toss the coin. But I don't think that is the main point here. I think the main point here is that I wasn't given the option to share that reason with the judge. And I think that anyone in this position should be given that option.


What is your so-called "good reason in this scenario" for not tossing a coin when required?


First of all, the judge said I took 20 seconds to flip the coin. But the time from calling heads and the opponent asking a question was only 14 seconds. Consider also that seeing the opponent type something is a reason for me to not flip the coin yet. If the opponent took 4 seconds to type the question, I only paused for 10 seconds.

My reason for not tossing the coin was that I was waiting for an answer of my opponent to my question whether he/she has a response to my attack. ('Signaled OK' meant 'Is the attack OK'?')

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Post #13 by Christen57 » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:42 am

Apoptosis wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
Apoptosis wrote:You don't see a reason, but all humans are fallible. There is always a possibility that there is something that you do not know or do not see at the moment of judging. So I think it is wise to let the person who would be victim of the punishment to explain themselves.

I do think there is a good reason in this scenario for me to take as long as I did to toss the coin. But I don't think that is the main point here. I think the main point here is that I wasn't given the option to share that reason with the judge. And I think that anyone in this position should be given that option.


What is your so-called "good reason in this scenario" for not tossing a coin when required?


First of all, the judge said I took 20 seconds to flip the coin. But the time from calling heads and the opponent asking a question was only 14 seconds. Consider also that seeing the opponent type something is a reason for me to not flip the coin yet. If the opponent took 4 seconds to type the question, I only paused for 10 seconds.

My reason for not tossing the coin was that I was waiting for an answer of my opponent to my question whether he/she has a response to my attack. ('Signaled OK' meant 'Is the attack OK'?')


After looking at the rulings regarding the damage step, I realized that you should have waited until after your opponent flipped their set monster face-up before declaring/activating Sasuke Samurai #4's effect. It's effect is "If this card battles a monster, toss a coin and call heads or tails before damage calculation." Any effect that activates "before damage calculation" when a set monster is attacked activates after that set monster is flipped face-up, not before, so you should have waited until the opponent flipped the set monster face-up before declaring Sasuke Samurai #4's effect.

Instead, you declared Sasuke Samurai #4's effect before your opponent flipped up their set monster:

[4:30] Entered Battle Phase
[4:32] Attacked Set card in M-3 with "Sasuke Samurai #4" in M-3
[4:41] "heads"
[4:43] Signaled OK


Also, signaling OK doesn't mean you're asking if the attack is okay. Signaling OK means you're saying the attack is okay.

Also, when Sasuke Samurai #4's effect says "toss a coin and call heads or tails," it means you have to perform both of those actions simultaneously (calling and tossing), not call heads/tails then wait to see if your opponent has a response before tossing a coin.

So you activated Sasuke Samurai #4's effect at the incorrect time (activated it before the set monster was flipped instead of after), and you resolved it's effect incorrectly (calling heads/tails then waiting for a response). Once you begin calling heads/tails with Sasuke Samurai #4's effect, your opponent does not get to respond with any effects until you finish resolving the rest of the effect and toss your coin to determine if the monster is destroyed due to Sasuke Samurai #4's effect, so once you call heads/tails, you must immediately toss a coin afterwards since tossing and calling both happen simultaneously. You don't call then wait on your opponent for anything. You call then immediately begin tossing.

If your opponent wants to respond with something, they need to respond either before you begin calling heads/tails or after you toss your coin. They don't get to respond in between you calling heads/tails and tossing your coin.

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Post #14 by ntakonta » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:08 am

Something that needs to be pointed out here is that Sasuke Samurai #4’s effect activates at the start of the damage step and not before damage calculation (even if it’s text mentions “before damage calculation”, you have to keep in mind that it’s text is really old). So they shouldn’t wait for their opponent to flip their monster face up.

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Post #15 by Renji Asuka » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:59 am

A card ruling on Sasuke Samurai #4

If "Sasuke Samurai #4" battles a monster, its effect always activates at the start of the Damage Step.

Proof: https://yugioh.fandom.com/wiki/Card_Rul ... _Samurai_4
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Post #16 by Apoptosis » Mon Jul 12, 2021 10:12 pm

Christen57 wrote:
Apoptosis wrote:
Christen57 wrote:
What is your so-called "good reason in this scenario" for not tossing a coin when required?


First of all, the judge said I took 20 seconds to flip the coin. But the time from calling heads and the opponent asking a question was only 14 seconds. Consider also that seeing the opponent type something is a reason for me to not flip the coin yet. If the opponent took 4 seconds to type the question, I only paused for 10 seconds.

My reason for not tossing the coin was that I was waiting for an answer of my opponent to my question whether he/she has a response to my attack. ('Signaled OK' meant 'Is the attack OK'?')


After looking at the rulings regarding the damage step, I realized that you should have waited until after your opponent flipped their set monster face-up before declaring/activating Sasuke Samurai #4's effect. It's effect is "If this card battles a monster, toss a coin and call heads or tails before damage calculation." Any effect that activates "before damage calculation" when a set monster is attacked activates after that set monster is flipped face-up, not before, so you should have waited until the opponent flipped the set monster face-up before declaring Sasuke Samurai #4's effect.

Instead, you declared Sasuke Samurai #4's effect before your opponent flipped up their set monster:

[4:30] Entered Battle Phase
[4:32] Attacked Set card in M-3 with "Sasuke Samurai #4" in M-3
[4:41] "heads"
[4:43] Signaled OK


Also, signaling OK doesn't mean you're asking if the attack is okay. Signaling OK means you're saying the attack is okay.

Also, when Sasuke Samurai #4's effect says "toss a coin and call heads or tails," it means you have to perform both of those actions simultaneously (calling and tossing), not call heads/tails then wait to see if your opponent has a response before tossing a coin.

So you activated Sasuke Samurai #4's effect at the incorrect time (activated it before the set monster was flipped instead of after), and you resolved it's effect incorrectly (calling heads/tails then waiting for a response). Once you begin calling heads/tails with Sasuke Samurai #4's effect, your opponent does not get to respond with any effects until you finish resolving the rest of the effect and toss your coin to determine if the monster is destroyed due to Sasuke Samurai #4's effect, so once you call heads/tails, you must immediately toss a coin afterwards since tossing and calling both happen simultaneously. You don't call then wait on your opponent for anything. You call then immediately begin tossing.

If your opponent wants to respond with something, they need to respond either before you begin calling heads/tails or after you toss your coin. They don't get to respond in between you calling heads/tails and tossing your coin.


Yes I knew that technically I should have asked OK before flipping the coin. (I didn't think it mattered that much to be that technically correct about it. But I do think now that is is better to do the sequencing correct.)

I think it still makes sense to ask after I flipped the coin if I forgot to ask before flipping it or if I decided after flipping it that I should have asked.

Why would I signal 'OK' to declare that the attack is OK to me? I have priority, so I either activate an effect after attack declaration, or ask the opponent if the attack is OK and thereby passing priority. Or I either activate an effect after attack declaration or signal OK to declare passing priority, but then the latter is an implicit question: 'I pass priority, response?' So either way 'signaling ok' asks for a response from the opponent.


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