Regarding Online simulation Yugioh on this site etc.

[Turbo]

This is not about misc-clicks anymore if you read my #12 on this topic. Perhaps i was not clear enough (I have not talked about mis-clicks after #10 on this topic).

This is only concerning the miscommunication that takes place when people do not respond in time etc.

There are only a limited amount of scenarios that need to be taken into account as the upper limit can easily be determined -

For instance - "you will not be allowed to respond after 25 seconds of your opponent declaring the chain links if you did not say 'think' etc. " - so then as a Judge you would have to only take into account all the scenarios before the 25 seconds mark. This is actually not that hard to do and it can literately be achieved by around 25 rows and 4 columns on a Microsoft excel sheet. (just an example) I explain in detail in my #12 of this topic how this can be achieved since there are pretty much only 2 factors to consider.

" Again, There are 2 factors here
1) The time waited by Player A before an effect/chain resolution is attempted without hearing back from Player B
2) How long It takes Player B to say something after Player A decides to resolve the chain without hearing back from Player B "

Is there any other factor that 'really' needs to be taken into account? If not, it very easily possible to make this 'excel sheet'. I would make it myself if i had a judge volunteer to help me out right now. To create a rough draft of this, It would probably take me only the time it takes me to play a couple of matches on this site.

This document is perhaps mostly for judges to make sure their judgements are consistent and fair throughout the site.

XTEVEN please see this too!

[Renji Asuka]

Again, DO NOT RESOLVE CHAIN LINKS UNTIL YOU ARE GIVEN THE OKAY.

How hard is that? If the opponent DOES NOT RESPOND in what you think is a reasonable time, CALL A JUDGE AND LET THEM DEAL WITH IT.

[Turbo]

Renji, Please stop saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the other's points.

If you see my previous reply to you, I specifically asked

"Do you want these judgments that take place every day regarding miscommunication to be fair and consistent (especially when its easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document) or personal feeling based by whoever the judge is?"

How is what you're saying have anything to do with this point? Please address the others points if you want to reply to their post or nothing gets accomplished.

Also on a further note- Genexwrecker and XTEVEN - this document can be specifically for Judge use only. You can choose not to release it to the public as well if it helps. This document's primary purpose would be to make sure such miscommunication issues are judged in a fair and consistent manner throughout the site.

[Renji Asuka]

Renji, Please stop saying the same thing over and over again without addressing the other's points.

If you see my previous reply to you, I specifically asked

"Do you want these judgments that take place every day regarding miscommunication to be fair and consistent (especially when its easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document) or personal feeling based by whoever the judge is?"

How is what you're saying have anything to do with this point? Please address the others points if you want to reply to their post or nothing gets accomplished.

Also on a further note- Genexwrecker and XTEVEN - this document can be specifically for Judge use only. You can choose not to release it to the public as well if it helps. This document's primary purpose would be to make sure such miscommunication issues are judged in a fair and consistent manner throughout the site.

You NEED to start understanding this concept. There is no "standard" as it is always up to the judge, don't make a move til you have confirmation to resolve, if your opponent won't communicate, call a judge. The sooner you understand that,t he sooner we can move on.

[Turbo]

Please... Again...address the point that i made. You are still not addressing the point that I made last to you!

I'll try to make more clear for you. Also, perhaps think of it in a judges perspective as well rather than just a player's perspective.

You acknowledged as well in a previous reply of yours that such miscommunication issues happen every day.

And it doesn't matter if it happens every day, people shouldn't be doing it period.

Now.... the question that presents itself is :

Do you want these judgments.... that take place every day .... regarding such miscommunication.... to be fair and consistent? 'Assuming' it's easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document? Or do you want them to be personal feeling based by whoever the judge is and RISK fairness and consistency?

Please address this point first if you want something to be accomplished with what you're saying as you still have not addressed it.

Also please note: I say 'Assuming" above but in my Post #12 and Post # 21 on this topic I actually show how the existence of this document is easily possible.

[Renji Asuka]

Please... Again...address the point that i made. You are still not addressing the point that I made last to you!

I'll try to make more clear for you. Also, perhaps think of it in a judges perspective as well rather than just a player's perspective.

You acknowledged as well in a previous reply of yours that such miscommunication issues happen every day.

And it doesn't matter if it happens every day, people shouldn't be doing it period.

Now.... the question that presents itself is :

Do you want these judgments.... that take place every day .... regarding such miscommunication.... to be fair and consistent? 'Assuming' it's easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document? Or do you want them to be personal feeling based by whoever the judge is and RISK fairness and consistency?

Please address this point first if you want something to be accomplished with what you're saying as you still have not addressed it.

Also please note: I say 'Assuming" above but in my Post #12 and Post # 21 on this topic I actually show how the existence of this document is easily possible.

Just...let...the...judge...take...care...of...it...It isn't that fucking hard m8. If you don't like the result from the judge, ask for an appeal.

[Turbo]

Appealing is a general method that allows Rulings to be more consistent and fair. It is NOT a solution to this specific issue of miscommunication.

Also I feel, you are still trying to avoid the point that I made….

Perhaps think as if you have come to judge a miscommunication issue in-game and now HAVE to rule in only one person’s favor.

Now….

Do you want your judgment of this particular miscommunication issue- an issue that takes place every day multiple times ... to be fair and consistent as the other judges on this site? Yes or no?

'Assuming' again that it's easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document

And please if you’re going to reply to me, address this point that I just mentioned or we won't get anywhere until you address this point.

Again, anyone who is reading this please note: I say 'Assuming" above but in my Post #12 and Post # 21 on this topic I actually show how the existence of this document is easily possible.

[Genexwrecker]

And I will ask you to stop repeating yourself as well. I have already stated there is a standard to communicate and follow the rules when you don’t is why judges are here. We exist for the reason of people failing to communicate properly. Those communication cases are always up to our judgement because somebody didn’t want to follow the rules.

[Turbo]

Genexwrecker, Perhaps I’m still not clear enough. Also, please actually try to respond to the points that I make rather than making general statements about why judges exist etc. I feel like I'm being pretty much completely ignored by both of you.

I was repeating to Renji because he too also completely ignored the points that I made and started making general statements.

In post #27 of this topic I gave an example and said

“

Perhaps think as if you have come to judge a miscommunication issue in-game and now HAVE to rule in only one person’s favor.

Now….

Do you want your judgment of this particular miscommunication issue- an issue that takes place every day multiple times ... to be fair and consistent as the other judges on this site? Yes or no?

'Assuming' again that it's easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document

Again, anyone who is reading this please note: I say 'Assuming" above but in my Post #12 and Post # 21 on this topic I actually show how the existence of this document is easily possible.

“

Please answer this point.

Also, I understand there is a standard to communicate.
And that is why in Post #23 of this topic, I specifically mention that this document can be for you judges 'only' to make sure all judgements passed by a judge regarding such miscommunication issues is fair and consistent as all the other judges on this site.

Genexwrecker please address the point in Post#27 (The point I have quoted for you in this post as well) rather than making another general statement or…. we just do not get anywhere.

[Turbo]

And I will ask you to stop repeating yourself as well. I have already stated there is a standard to communicate and follow the rules when you don’t is why judges are here. We exist for the reason of people failing to communicate properly. Those communication cases are always up to our judgement because somebody didn’t want to follow the rules.

Genexwrecker, Perhaps I’m still not clear enough. Also, please actually try to respond to the points that I make rather than making general statements about why judges exist etc. I feel like I'm being pretty much completely ignored by both of you.

I was repeating myself to Renji because he too also completely ignored the points that I made and started making general statements.

In post #27 of this topic I gave an example and said

“

Perhaps think as if you have come to judge a miscommunication issue in-game and now HAVE to rule in only one person’s favor.

Now….

Do you want your judgment of this particular miscommunication issue- an issue that takes place every day multiple times ... to be fair and consistent as the other judges on this site? Yes or no?

'Assuming' again that it's easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document

Again, anyone who is reading this please note: I say 'Assuming" above but in my Post #12 and Post # 21 on this topic I actually show how the existence of this document is easily possible.

“

Please answer this point.

Also, I understand there is a standard to communicate.
And that is why in Post #23 of this topic, I specifically mention that this document can be for you judges 'only'. This will protect the standard to communicate as well as make sure all judgements passed by a judge regarding such miscommunication issues is fair and consistent as all the other judges on this site.

Genexwrecker please address the point in Post#27 (The point I have quoted for you in this post as well) rather than making another general statement or…. we just do not get anywhere.

[Renji Asuka]

Appealing is a general method that allows Rulings to be more consistent and fair. It is NOT a solution to this specific issue of miscommunication.

Also I feel, you are still trying to avoid the point that I made….

Perhaps think as if you have come to judge a miscommunication issue in-game and now HAVE to rule in only one person’s favor.

Now….

Do you want your judgment of this particular miscommunication issue- an issue that takes place every day multiple times ... to be fair and consistent as the other judges on this site? Yes or no?

'Assuming' again that it's easily possible to do so by the existence of 1 document

And please if you’re going to reply to me, address this point that I just mentioned or we won't get anywhere until you address this point.

Again, anyone who is reading this please note: I say 'Assuming" above but in my Post #12 and Post # 21 on this topic I actually show how the existence of this document is easily possible.

You haven't been making any points since your argument is "What if this happens or this happens? It must be standardized!" in which case, the situations can be vastly different and the judges must use their best judgement on the situation and make the call. The opponent has the right to respond after EVERY card is played. Just like I have the right to respond after EVERY card is played. So just PLAY BY THE RULES AND CALL JUDGES WHEN THE NEED ARISES. If you DON'T like the outcome in that ruling, appeal to another judge (which might I add, can be denied).

[Genexwrecker]

There would also be situations where I might rule it differently than other judges on the same problem. And that is perfectly fine. You don’t need a document for every what if scenario. If you don’t want the possibility of being ruled against then communicate.

In addition what you are asking is nothing but trouble it is xtremely dangerous to say X is long enough to wait for a response as a standard as not only will that lead to rule sharking but encourage no communication. I’ve been doing these judgement calls on duelingbook for over 2 years over 10,000 of them users take anything they can try to construe as law and use it to stall waste a judges time or rule shark.

[Turbo]

Renji brother, You refuse to answer my question. Again, please answer my question first as Genexwrecker just did.

Genexwreker Thank you so much for answering my point.

Ok, how about lets just think from a judges perspective only.
Correct me if I’m wrong, I think every judge on this site would agree that rulings need to be as consistent and fair as possible. This is all I want as well.

When you say

There would also be situations where I might rule it differently than other judges on the same problem. And that is perfectly fine.

I just do not think this has to be the case, in regards to miscommunication issues that specifically result from:

Player B not responding to a declared effect or chain by Player A by saying “think” / “ok” / chain their own effect when the should

(i.e. Both players at fault for miscommunication but Player B mostly at fault - unless Factor 2{How long it took Player B to stop Player A} is taken into account- The maximum accepted amount of Factor 2 should perhaps depend on Factor 1 {the time waited} and should perhaps decrease as Factor 1 increases- again Player A should keep waiting or should call for slow play- this is what we would tell the players)

or

from Player A resolving the effect too quickly without waiting for response from Player B.

(i.e. Player A at fault for miscommunication for not waiting for the response of Player B - unless Factor 2 {How long it took Player B to stop Player A} is taken into account - in which Player B lets Player A resolve the effect and a certain time has passed since Player A started resolving the effect- In this case Both players are actually at fault for miscommunication but Player B mostly at fault, since Player B decided to not stop the opponent well after Player A decided to resolve the chain —
Again the maximum acceptable amount for Factor 2 will perhaps depend on Factor 1 and should perhaps decrease as Factor 1 {the time waited} increases).
Also again, Player A should keep waiting or should call for slow play- this is what we would tell the players.

If you see in post #21, I wasn’t as clear as I should have been before and I apologize for that (I have edited post#21 along with post#12 regarding the same quote too). I ask in this post


“ There are 2 factors here
1) The time waited by Player A before an effect/chain resolution is attempted without hearing back from Player B
2) How long It takes Player B to say something after Player A decides to resolve the chain without hearing back from Player B

Is there any other factor that 'really' needs to be taken into account? “


Lets stop here first, as my entire argument right now pretty much depends on your answer of whether there are more than 2 factors that Judges ‘really’ need to take into account here. I do not believe that there are any other factors currently being taken into account and perhaps there is also no need to.

Also in regards to your concern of

it is xtremely dangerous to say X is long enough to wait for a response as a standard"

I understand your point. We would just never set any maximum time to respond. This maximum “X” that we would set can just be considered for slow playing — ‘For instance’ if a player does not say “think” “ok”, “activate an effect themselves” for 25 seconds after a chain is declared - then they are slow playing and we will tell the players to then call for slow play if a person decides to do that. — If the person responds with “think” as they should- this maximum “X” for slow play does not apply here as it only applies to when players refuse to communicate with each other. (The possible fact that no judge would allow an opponennt to respond after a player does not say think for 25seconds (the example number that we just considered as slow play if reached) is completely besides the point here.

The standard would still be Player A should not resolve the effect until they hear back from Player B. And Player B should say ‘think’ in time if they want to think/activate their own eff, or say ok to their effs in time so that the game can proceed.

Furthermore this does not mean that a person has 25 seconds to say ‘think’ every time and it wouldn't be considered slow play - They can still be slow playing if they take less than that amount- for instance if they take 24 seconds to say “think” for each effect that their opponent activates. If they do this for no particular reason then they too would be slow playing. All players would still be advised to call for slow play if they think their opponent is slow playing just as they are advised right now. This judgment will then be up to the Judge to decide if slow play actually took place- perhaps depending on the game state and players hand etc.

All of this should actually promote more effective communication.

Also Please bare with me. I want you think as if we are just brainstorming here together to see if their is a better method than the one being used right now, regarding miscommunication such as the ones described - in order to promote more fair and consistent rulings regarding ‘miscommunication’ issues

Of course, only if you/the judge community/Xteven thinks that there is better method than the one being used right now, only then should the method be implemented.

I hope I am making sense.

[Genexwrecker]

You don’t take judge calls more have you taken thousands of misclick calls there are far more than 2 factors considered in every scenario and every misclick is different no 2 are the same. As I said before the standard is to communicate failure to do so is specifically why the judges exist.

[Christen57]

----Also on a side note players should be strongly advised to visit the rules and penalties page of this site( (for instance the first thing in announcements) so they don’t get frozen etc. for something they did not mean maliciously - I don't believe that non regular players are that aware and should be given more of an opportunity to be more aware.

The rule page literally says "The information contained here is subject to change without prior notice. It's your responsibility to stay up to date."

That literally means it's your responsibility to stay up to date.

[Turbo]

----Also on a side note players should be strongly advised to visit the rules and penalties page of this site( (for instance the first thing in announcements) so they don’t get frozen etc. for something they did not mean maliciously - I don't believe that non regular players are that aware and should be given more of an opportunity to be more aware.

The rule page literally says "The information contained here is subject to change without prior notice. It's your responsibility to stay up to date."

That literally means it's your responsibility to stay up to date.

I understand Christen, I was just saying we could give the other players more of an opportunity to know these rules. I was not thinking about myself here really , I was thinking about all players in this community and the players that would join us in the future.

Also please do read post#33 as what i am advocating for right now is mentioned in it. The earlier posts in the topic was pretty much preliminary work just to understand what should happen. Thanks

[Renji Asuka]

----Also on a side note players should be strongly advised to visit the rules and penalties page of this site( (for instance the first thing in announcements) so they don’t get frozen etc. for something they did not mean maliciously - I don't believe that non regular players are that aware and should be given more of an opportunity to be more aware.

The rule page literally says "The information contained here is subject to change without prior notice. It's your responsibility to stay up to date."

That literally means it's your responsibility to stay up to date.

I understand Christen, I was just saying we could give the other players more of an opportunity to know these rules. I was not thinking about myself here really , I was thinking about all players in this community and the players that would join us in the future.

Also please do read post#33 as what i am advocating for right now is mentioned in it. The earlier posts in the topic was pretty much preliminary work just to understand what should happen. Thanks

Players already know the rules, for some reason, you think the rules are some magical beast that can't be accessed or understood.

[Genexwrecker]

----Also on a side note players should be strongly advised to visit the rules and penalties page of this site( (for instance the first thing in announcements) so they don’t get frozen etc. for something they did not mean maliciously - I don't believe that non regular players are that aware and should be given more of an opportunity to be more aware.

The rule page literally says "The information contained here is subject to change without prior notice. It's your responsibility to stay up to date."

That literally means it's your responsibility to stay up to date.

we have an opportunity for them we put the rules in a big bold link on the front page that is impossible to miss. Logging into a site without reading the rules Or of terms of service in front of you is lunacy. We have even made efforts to have a pop up window asking if you have read the rules/policy changes before you play rated and 99% of players clicked yes to reading the rules without doing so.

[Turbo]

You don’t take judge calls more have you taken thousands of misclick calls there are far more than 2 factors considered in every scenario and every misclick is different no 2 are the same. As I said before the standard is to communicate failure to do so is specifically why the judges exist.

Genexwrecker, I don’t understand why you are not responding to my post #33 specifically.

I don’t even think you read my post #33 properly. If you did you would see that I specifically mention when these ruling would be applied.

in regards to miscommunication issues that specifically result from:

I do not mention mis-clicks in post#33 at all!

Also in Post#21 I start off by saying that this matter that I am discussing is no longer about mis-clicks- you might have missed that as well.

This is not about misc-clicks anymore if you read my #12 on this topic. Perhaps i was not clear enough (I have not talked about mis-clicks after #10 on this topic).

Please re-read post#33 and ask me anything you do not understand. I am more than willing to explain further in detail about anything that I have said.

Also I asked a question about a factor other than the 2 factors I mention regarding these “specific” miscommunication issues , please do answer my question that I ask in post #33.

Then please address Post#33 directly with whatever you have to say, rather than giving into the urge of pretty much ignoring what I’m saying and making another general statement about why Judges exist etc.

And finally please do not mind but if this is too much work for you, I completely understand. I thank you for responding earlier, although I would just request you to then please refrain from replying and let someone else look into this matter. Otherwise, we just do not get anywhere.

Thanks

[Genexwrecker]

I did respond to 33 you seem to misunderstand something. Misclick sand communication issues are the same. More so misclick are a part of bad communication and improper play. Misclick are not accidents and never occur due to such they are intentionally caused by players who refuse to play properly. Everything I said for misclick applies to everything else you have stated